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Not sure if this is the right place for this, but looking over the 5th edition missions, do most games start with you just about in assault range for turn 1 now? From what I remembered from 3rd/4th edition, you started a decent distance from your opponent. Turn 1 assaults were really hard to pull off, even turn 2 if you were on a normal sized board (6x4). Now, deployment zones run against each other and units need to only be 18" from an opposing unit. Feels like some of the strategy of positioning has been taken out simply to get to the assaults in turn 1.

Hey Loki

How's tricks?

I can't comment of the 3rd or 4th as I've never played them. Not sure that I agree with your analysis of the 5th though. Yeah first turn assaults are possible thanks to scout moves and infiltration but in my expereince they aren't that common. Think its happened to me twice, both times against orks first time was by deff kopters on a small table, second time was by bikers again on a small table and I met him half way on purpose to choke up the mid field and keep him from my objective.

Surely a lot of it comes down to your deployment and use of terrain.

As a guard player if I go first I try to blow the hell out of whatever I think is going to get into assault fast and if I go second I see where they place there assaulty units and position my self accordingly. Only real problem is when they steal the intiative or if your using a 4x4 for larger point games (1500 points of orks vs Guard on a 4x4 is ridiculous).

How are you getting turn 1 assaults? Pitched battle starts armies at least 24" apart. Dawn of War greatly limits what can be on the table and keeps everything at least 18" apart. Spearhead has a 24" bubble of no-man's land in the center.

Scout move up to 24" before the first turn (staying 12" away), move 12" and assault 6", any bike/jetbike type unit with Scouts can easily get a turn 1 assault. Also any open topped vehicle (or Land Raiders with Assault Ramps) can easily manage a 20" assault, with fleet as well it can get up to 26", plenty for a first turn charge. The other option is Infiltrating unit with Fleet, but they don't show up that often and are limited to a 18" charge (unless they are infiltrating jump pack troops with Shrike).

In any case its not that hard to avoid a first turn charge, you should be able to see it coming based on their list and deployment. First turn charges in DoW isn't really an issue as while you can be closer, not many troop or HQ units have that kind of reach. Spearhead or Pitch Battle you start further apart so it doesn't happen that often.

Against open topped transports you should be fine as long as you don't deploy on the line, being in cover helps as well (so they have less chance of getting to you). Blocking turn 1 Scout Assaults is harder, but it generally requires that your opponent is going first (otherwise he Scouts into your face and you blast him before they do anything). Actually blocking them requires some form of cheap sacrifice unit, infantry squads deploying on the line stops them getting to your more valuable units (as they can't scout close enough), notably vehicles which are particularly vulnerable before they move.

while it's possible to get turn 1 assaults through various methods, it's pretty rare. In pitched and spearhead deployment, you've always got to start out at least 24" from your opponent (unless the both of you really cram it up to the edges in spearhead).

The thing is, though, that infantry now move up to twice as fast as they did back in 4th ed. What you are probably noticing is the effects of running.

Ailaros wrote:What you are probably noticing is the effects of running.

Oh thank goodness, I was all out of breath, my legs burned, and I felt really tired. I thought I was dying, but I guess I ran earlier.

-Loki- wrote:Not sure if this is the right place for this, but looking over the 5th edition missions, do most games start with you just about in assault range for turn 1 now? From what I remembered from 3rd/4th edition, you started a decent distance from your opponent. Turn 1 assaults were really hard to pull off, even turn 2 if you were on a normal sized board (6x4). Now, deployment zones run against each other and units need to only be 18" from an opposing unit. Feels like some of the strategy of positioning has been taken out simply to get to the assaults in turn 1.

turn 1 assaults are more likely to happen in this edition than in previous editions, both because codices have more 1st turn mobility in the past and because of the spearhead mission. Some players dont understand that they can get charged on the 1st turn even with normal mobility if they deploy wrong on the spearhead mission. The *radius of the circle at the center of the board is 24" but the *chords of the circle are shorter. So if your opponent has the 1st turn and the north west corner of the board, and you take the 2nd turn and the south east corner, if he deploys on the south side of his deployment zone and you deploy on the east side of yours, you're not 24" away from him anymore. If you both get your forces as close to the edge as possible then he can charge you on turn 1 with bikes jump troops etc. Its hard to explain in words but if you look at a map of the spearhead mission you can see it pretty clearly.
AF

They are more common (only because I can't think of a single way to do it in 4th) but still not common. And if you don't want to get assaulted turn 1 don't deploy right on the edge of your zone. With only a very few exceptions you have to be an equally responcible party to letting someone assault you turn 1.

I will say turn 2 assaults ARE pretty common, but like someone already said that has to do with the run move more than deployment zones.

It's almost impossible to be assaulted on the first turn if you don't want to be.

There's still no rules mandating you must set something up as close as possible to the enemy.

Its not the missions it's everything else. Run moves, turbo boosting scouts, and mechanized troops.

Thanks for that. I was getting a bit worried, since while I like playing assault based armies, I don't like getting into assault early since multiple assaults really slow the game down.

-Loki- wrote:I like playing assault based armies, I don't like getting into assault early

I guess you don't like winning then :0)

AbaddonFidelis wrote: The *radius of the circle at the center of the board is 24" but the *chords of the circle are shorter.
AF

Hey, you're right. I never noticed that before. Thanks for the tip. That means even a bog-standard assault marine or bike can get a turn 1 charge, since those chords can be--if I remember my geometry right--as short as just under 17". (Note that the diameter of the circle is 24", the radius is only 12").

I play a Shrike army with both scouts and assault marines, and the infiltrating scout/jumppack units can always get a turn 1 charge off against *something* as long as the opponent deploys anything at all. It may not be anything worth assaulting if the opponent sets up right, but there's no way to avoid it (except by putting everything in reserve).

Flavius Infernus wrote:
I play a Shrike army with both scouts and assault marines, and the infiltrating scout/jumppack units can always get a turn 1 charge off against *something* as long as the opponent deploys anything at all. It may not be anything worth assaulting if the opponent sets up right, but there's no way to avoid it (except by putting everything in reserve).

Again, nothing compels either player to set up as far forward as they can set up. They can set up as far back as they want. This can easily be outside first turn assault ranges on jump+fleet troops on a 6x4 board.

its not the fleet alone. its also the infiltrate. the ravenguard player can always deploy within 1st turn charge range of something.

I don't think that you can deploy with infiltrate in charge range unless you have fleet... Remember, you have to stay out of los... So in 99% when you deploy 12'' away out of los, you will have something blocking the path and thus making you go around it... Even if it makes you go around 0,001'', you can't charge

But I agree, scout move, run+fleet make it possible first turn assault, but not that common... Ofc, there is my favorite buzzsaw deffkopta cutting opponents tanks round 1

shrike gives everyone fleet

Yes, I am aware of that... Wasn't commenting shriek first turn assault... Just saying that infiltrate alone is not enough... As for Shriek, ofc you can, but even then it is not 100% certain... Unless you have assault marines with him

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

-Loki- wrote:I like playing assault based armies, I don't like getting into assault early

I guess you don't like winning then :0)

Even playing an assault based army, I like boards with lots of terrain, and both armies starting quite a long way apart. I find it makes the game more tactical - you need to actually think turns ahead on where you want to move units, and even an opponent with a shooty army has to as well, since they can't just draw fire lines right down the table.

Well, I like pitched battle... Gives you more room for deployment and everything... But I absolutely hate spearhead... I always roll it against ork battlewagon spam that my friend plays, and I can't spread out to get tactical advantage...
Not to mention down of war... Not only opponent can put his forces on the center of the table, but there is also a night fighting? Somebody loves assault oriented hordes, if you ask me

Chinchilla wrote:Well, I like pitched battle... Gives you more room for deployment and everything... But I absolutely hate spearhead... I always roll it against ork battlewagon spam that my friend plays, and I can't spread out to get tactical advantage...
Not to mention down of war... Not only opponent can put his forces on the center of the table, but there is also a night fighting? Somebody loves assault oriented hordes, if you ask me

Spearhead against BW spam is great, you can deploy in such a way that he can't get a charge before turn 3, your reserves will get side shots as his BW's roll against your main force in the corner etc.

DoW sucks for assault hordes. Being on foot and having to cross an extra 12" is at least another turn of shooting at those units. Sure, 60 orks and a warboss can deploy at the 24" line, but unsupported against your entire army, they should perish

Well, I agree actually on dawn of war... Didn't roll for it for some time now on larger games, but I have rolled it against orks on 750pts:p So totally forgot only 2 troops and boss

As for spearhead, I disagree... It makes you deploy in your own quarter... Sure, turn 3, but in turn 3 he has everything on you... In pitched battle you can take opposite sides and make him decide where to go, while shooting the hell out of him till he gets there... So definitely, I hate spearhead (I play SM, just for the record)...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:its not the fleet alone. its also the infiltrate. the ravenguard player can always deploy within 1st turn charge range of something.

Every single battle every played has terrain placed precisely enough that allows a unit to be more than 12" inches away from every point the the enemy can deploy and be completely out of line of sight?

what are you talking about?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
I play a Shrike army with both scouts and assault marines, and the infiltrating scout/jumppack units can always get a turn 1 charge off against *something* as long as the opponent deploys anything at all. It may not be anything worth assaulting if the opponent sets up right, but there's no way to avoid it (except by putting everything in reserve).

Again, nothing compels either player to set up as far forward as they can set up. They can set up as far back as they want. This can easily be outside first turn assault ranges on jump+fleet troops on a 6x4 board.

Um, that's kind of my point. You don't have to deploy forward because it doesn't matter where you set up on the table; if you set up at all, the infiltrators can set up 18" away from you, no matter where you are.

You can set up with the edge of your base touching your own table edge, as far back as possible, and the infiltrators can still just set up 18" away. Then--in the Shrike army described--they can get a turn 1 assault.

There is no "outside first turn assault range" against infiltrators, because they'll always be able to start 18" away, no matter where you deploy.

Plus, even if terrain blocks the way between the infiltrators, jumppackers can just ignore it.

As I said, jump pack infiltrators have first turn assault...

That is if you house rule that Shrike gets to infiltrate with units that don't have infiltrat already .
J/k, I don't play stupid RAW .

That's one beef I have with 40k in general: the poorly-written rules. In a tournament, rules should always be black and white, and there shouldn't be grays. There shouldn't be a roll off to see who's right or wrong about their interpretation of the rules:--the rules should be clear who is right or wrong, or if neither player is right. Imagine while playing chess, the players argued on what are the circumstances when you can do an en passant.

That said, if you play RAW, then Shrike becomes a point-sink. Which is also bad. The only solution is write the rules clearly so that it won't be the subject of inidividual player's interpretation, but i don't think it will happen soon.

Maybe I'm just comparing competitive 40k with competitive Magic: the Gathering. In Magic, you play by RAW no matter what.