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So I was once again pondering the abomination that is the Tyranid FAQ. Everyone knows that Shadow in the Warp doesn't affect units embarked in vehicles but what about Psychic Hood?

The rule reads: "You can declare use if enemy model within range passes a psychic test". If enemy model is embarked it is obviously not on the table and can't be in range of anything. Some people in this forum say that you can use the Hood as if the transport that you use to measure range of the Psychic Power passed the test but that doesn't make sense to me. The rule reads that model passing the psychic test must be in range and in the case of embarked models that can't be the case ever.

Feel free to flame me if I'm making a moronic statement but I would like to assume that all similar rules follow the same RAI. This of course means that I'm against empty Drop Pods too just because 'Nids FAQ.

It has been argued that you canonly measure to embarked units. Even though the unit is made of models, there is no way to ascertain the exact location of a model in a unit that is embarked.

Only Tyranid players seem to give it thought, however. Everyone else just says "neener neener" from what I have seen.

Yes, you can use Psychic Hoods from Transports and they effect models who are using powers from Transports.

I find the game is significantly improved if you just ignore the GW FAQs and stick to using only the errata and the actual rules.

But for all it is worth, the Nid FAQ is actually correct on the point of Spods being unable to come down empty, because they are not Transport Vehicles. The reason you can do it with Drop Pods is because the are Transport Vehicles, while a Spod is not.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, you can use Psychic Hoods from Transports and they effect models who are using powers from Transports.

I find the game is significantly improved if you just ignore the GW FAQs and stick to using only the errata and the actual rules.

Can you tell me why this would be true? English is not my first language but the RAW with Hood seems pretty clear, it is not like anything else can reach inside vehicles either. The page of the rule that tells where embarked models actually are would probably solve this.

Aetherse wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, you can use Psychic Hoods from Transports and they effect models who are using powers from Transports.

I find the game is significantly improved if you just ignore the GW FAQs and stick to using only the errata and the actual rules.

Can you tell me why this would be true? English is not my first language but the RAW with Hood seems pretty clear, it is not like anything else can reach inside vehicles either. The page of the rule that tells where embarked models actually are would probably solve this.

Page 66 says to measure to the Hull of the vehicle.

A Librarian is a unit.

Ergo, you measure to the hull.

Simple! It's the same reason why KFFs and Blood Chalices of Bloody Bloodness work from vehicles.

I meant that the Librarian is outside and the opposing Psyker is inside. The Psyker rolls and measures from the hull. However the Hood needs to be measured to the model, not to the unit so what happens? Do you make an approximation that the model is inside the transport even though physically it is not there and nowhere in the rules it says where it is? Model is removed from the table and has embarked status.

Well Gwar isnt the whole rule "If you need to measure to or from an embarked unit, measure from the vehicles hull."

Does RAW on the hood say you need to measure to an embarked unit? No, it says if the model is in range. The model is embarked, thus the model's status is removed from the table, per the preceding rule on page 66. And no permission was given to measure to the embarked unit. Thus the hood may not be used either when in a vehicle or to stop a psyker who is in a vehicle.

DevianID wrote:Well Gwar isnt the whole rule "If you need to measure to or from an embarked unit, measure from the vehicles hull."

Does RAW on the hood say you need to measure to an embarked unit? No, it says if the model is in range. The model is embarked, thus the model's status is removed from the table, per the preceding rule on page 66. And no permission was given to measure to the embarked unit. Thus the hood may not be used either when in a vehicle or to stop a psyker who is in a vehicle.

Models are always part of a unit... that's kind of how the rules work...

Gwar! wrote:Models are always part of a unit...

Always?

Downed Necrons are not.

I do not believe ammo squigs are.

Err. . .I will stop now.

In a friendly setting, who cares? Agree on an interpretation or roll a d6.
In a tournament setting, ask the TO for a ruling if you don't agree with your opponent.

It's supposed to be a game after all......

agnosto wrote:In a friendly setting, who cares? Agree on an interpretation or roll a d6.
In a tournament setting, ask the TO for a ruling if you don't agree with your opponent.

How about in a forum discussing the rules?

Any opinion?

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Models are always part of a unit...

Always?

Downed Necrons are not.

I do not believe ammo squigs are.

Err. . .I will stop now.

Oh, you! You know what I mean silly buns!

Models are part of units but they have their own place too. Hood doesn't affect if the enemy psyker isn't physically in the range even if the unit he/she belongs is in any other situation either.

agnosto wrote:In a friendly setting, who cares? Agree on an interpretation or roll a d6.
In a tournament setting, ask the TO for a ruling if you don't agree with your opponent.

It's supposed to be a game after all......

Ok.

All my Marines are S10 on a 4+, ok? What, you object? Stop being such a WAAC Powergamer! It's just a game!

-Rolls a 4-

All my Marines are T10 on a 4+, ok? What, you object? Stop being such a WAAC Powergamer! It's just a game!

etc. etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aetherse wrote:Models are part of units but they have their own place too. Hood doesn't affect if the enemy psyker isn't physically in the range even if the unit he/she belongs is in any other situation either.

Except the psyker IS in range if the hull is within range, as per Page 66.

kirsanth wrote:

agnosto wrote:In a friendly setting, who cares? Agree on an interpretation or roll a d6.
In a tournament setting, ask the TO for a ruling if you don't agree with your opponent.

How about in a forum discussing the rules?

Any opinion?

My opinion is that you would measure to/from the hull of the vehicle. You could almost say that the librarian senses the disturbance in the force....er...warp and moves to the side of the vehicle closest to the object.

Gwar! wrote:Except the psyker IS in range if the hull is within range, as per Page 66.

The psyker's unit is in range, we all agree, I think.

Where the psyker is in that unit is less concrete.

[

Gwar! wrote:Ok.
All my Marines are S10 on a 4+, ok? What, you object? Stop being such a WAAC Powergamer! It's just a game!

-Rolls a 4-

All my Marines are T10 on a 4+, ok? What, you object? Stop being such a WAAC Powergamer! It's just a game!

etc. etc..

*sigh* Ok, I would think that my point was readily obvious but I guess not. I suppose I'll have spell it out for you.
In a situation where the rules are not abundantly clear...or where there may be more than one interpretation of said rule...

Rules clearly define stats.

Not stop being a obtuse, silly-nilly.

Except the psyker IS in range if the hull is within range, as per Page 66.

Gwar, 'If you NEED to measure range to/from an embarked unit' does not mean you CAN measure range to/from without a reason.

Yes, a PHood has a range, but a PHood does not say you can measure range to an embarked unit.

Correct me if I am wrong: your logic is that the hood is on or in a unit, and the unit is embarked, thus you need to measure range to an embarked unit.

My logic is that the hood says to measure to a model, and PER PG 66 the model is removed from the table. When trying to measure range to a model that is removed from the table, you fail.

Similiarly, Pedro Kantor says all units within 12 inches of Pedro Kantor get +1 attack. The rule does not say all models within range of pedro kantor or his unit when embarked gain +1 attack.

How do you feel about Tau smart missiles firing at embarked units btw Gwar? Its not directly related but would give me some insight.

So what everyone is saying is that you can measure from the model in a transport to use a power out of the transport, but you cannot measure to the transport to stop the power from the model (which by the way you cannot measure range from since it is the model casting the power and is off the table) inside the transport? Can I get a page reference please? Thank you!

You measure from a fire point.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So what everyone is saying is that you can measure from the model in a transport to use a power out of the transport, but you cannot measure to the transport to stop the power from the model (which by the way you cannot measure range from since it is the model casting the power and is off the table) inside the transport? Can I get a page reference please? Thank you!

No, what everyone really wants to say is that GW has made an absolute mess of the rules involving embarked units, and hasn't opted for the expediency of something like "Embarked units aren't even on the table" answer in previous FAQ's.

I seem to recall that DH Phoods are omnicient (sp), so would this discussion apply to these bad boys?

Easy fix for determining where who is sitting where: Troop Manifest per Vic.

Embarked units are not on the table. When they need to meausre a distance, you measusre to the hull instead. You cannot measure from outside to in.

axeman1n wrote:Embarked units are not on the table. When they need to meausre a distance, you measusre to the hull instead. You cannot measure from outside to in.

Actually, you can.The rule on Page 66 is pretty clear about this. It says To or From.

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Models are always part of a unit...

Always?

Downed Necrons are not.

I do not believe ammo squigs are.

Err. . .I will stop now.

I will take a moment to remind you that downed necrons, ammo runts, oiler grots, bomb squigs and the like are not actually "models" in the game sense, but rather decorative placeholders or markers that can be removed from the table with no effect on gameplay. They may have models available, but they cannot be targeted or otherwise interacted with.

Can't believe you missed that one, GWAR!...

that being said, GWAR! has got the OP's question down cold.

I agree with Gwar there axeman1n. Embarked MODELS are not on the table, but you can measure to embarked units by measuring to the hull of their transport.

Where I disagree with Gwar is that rules for measuring to an embarked unit do not automaticly count as rules for measuring to a specific model.

For example, if I cast lash on a unit, I measure to the unit. If I give every model within 6 inches +1 attack then I measure to the models. Things that target or hit models dont hit units, and vice versa.

A hood measures to a particular model. Rules for measuring to the embarked unit the model is in are not rule for measuring to the model, and thus we can not use the rule.

You wouldnt measure to a libbys unit 20 inches away when the libby is actually 28 inches away, would you?

/facepalm… you have lost this argument. They can work as per page 66. Think about it fluff-wise… you don't need to see the bugger… you can sense it from the warp.

BoyMac, if a vehicle explodes and all models with 5 inches are hit, are all models in a transport within 5 inches hit?
Thus, according to you, measuring to models is the same as measuring to units?

You measure from the hull… not the models in it. This happens before you disembark anyways…

Sorry, lagged. This was a repeat post. Mods can delete it if they want.