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I only came up with one good idea and i don't even know if it's legit... and even if it is, it's not for my faction

Basically you take thunderhead, use the pulse attack (which is a special attack that auto hits) near the caster.
Then because the gun has RoF 3, you can buy more shots on the caster that will auto-hit because of sustained attack
So if you can get thunderhead close enough to the caster (or other high Def annoyance) he can shoot it three times with guaranteed hits.

Any other thoughts? possibly Khador related thoughts?

EDIT: Title is supposed to say hitting Def 20+ reliably, it was bugging me.

That's not really an idea. That is what DJ Thunderhead does.

The other player just has to not step into that trap.

But I don't think you have it quite right. The Pulse is a *Attack, so you can only do it once.
The ROF3 allows 2 more attacks with the Lightning without the Pulse effect.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

What i was getting at is that the pulse (that is done with a gun that has sustained attack) hits the caster.
Then all other normal attacks bought with the gun auto hit the caster as well, as the gun has already hit with the pulse.

Um...
You knockdown said model with Def 20, which is in most cases an easy option with disposable troopers .

Personally.... slamming (the collateral hit) is my favorite option... obviously you can't boost the damage on the collateral hit, but you now have a knocked down model (so long as it's equal or smaller base...).

swarmer wrote:What i was getting at is that the pulse (that is done with a gun that has sustained attack) hits the caster.
Then all other normal attacks bought with the gun auto hit the caster as well, as the gun has already hit with the pulse.

This. Sustained attack is a beautiful thing.

In Khador, your options are basically Beast-09 with the imprint and a boost (4 dice at MAT 7 hits damn near everything, and will probably freeze to boot), Sorscha's beautiful, beautiful feat, or slamming something over 'em. The last one works particularly well, with our cheap infantry and great warjacks (especially the Marauder in this case), as well as solos like the Bokur and Kovnik who can slam as well. Just line up an infantry model between the target and the warjack (Winterguard work well, due to their low defense) and slam them in the back. Instant KD'd warcaster.

You forgot other Cygnaran tricks, such as hitting something big and heavy
next to the DEF 20 model with something that electro-leaps or chain lightning.

A boosted Magnus Mechanical arm attack works pretty good.
Then foe cleve away.

this is why the thunderhead is my favorite jack.
i like to use it with epic haley since she can give it an extra 4 inches and an additional shot and she can pull it out of melee.

Knockdown, upkeep/effect removal, direct damage effects, AOEs, maybe Hunter or Eyeless Sight, boost the attacks of a MAT buffed character jack... Every faction has a way of dealing with high DEF models.

eCaine and Magic Bullet can do it too, either with shooting their guys nearby or run yours up and pop them with Caine. Magic Bullet also gets around eSkarre's quite nicely.

So, the basic way of hitting Def 20 is not to
aka Play on your terms, not the opponents'.

Run one of your own small base models in base to base with the def 20 model, then slam your own model over it with a jack that has reach. Then buy more attacks with said jack that auto hit.

Khador related? Play Sorscha... pop her feat... now that def 20 whatever it is... is stationary!

Why not give us some more details, who is this def 20 model and what effects are boosting defense to this insane level? Offhand the only model I know that can get def 20, is pretty much a khador caster like Sorscha using windrush (unless MKII changed its effects).

eMorghoul base 17.
Cover +4.
His Feat +2
Krea Nearby +2 for ranged.

Def 25 vs. Shooting and Def 23 vs. combat.

Best results with no knockdown Animi on him moving backwards.

The only thing he fears is stuff that removes Animi.

Sanctjud wrote:eMorghoul base 17.
Cover +4.
His Feat +2
Krea Nearby +2 for ranged.

Def 25 vs. Shooting and Def 23 vs. combat.

Best results with no knockdown Animi on him moving backwards.

The only thing he fears is stuff that removes Animi.

What's his ARM vs. blast damage? 15?

Evasive will make AOEs weird, but I think you resolve the deviation before you move
him, so whatever you're launching at him may still do some damage.

Or surround him with low def models you control and drop the AoE on them. Definitely a tough nut to crack for sure.

I think I'd go for a pit on him and go for a scenario win there.

12thRonin wrote:Or surround him with low def models you control and drop the AoE on them. Definitely a tough nut to crack for sure.

I think I'd go for a pit on him and go for a scenario win there.

Yeah, there's always the tarpit option.

My trouble is that my tarpit is usually my front line, whereas my hammer is the second
line. Because of the nature of my armies, I hesitate to call anything an anvil. Therefore,
eMorghoul's army should have chewed through or absolutely avoided my tarpit long
before I get there.

The second thing is, if his feat is up, why the heck are we still playing?

/shrug, eMorghoul should defnintely have a worm in B2B
And be sitting on almost all his fury for transfers, but yea, really low arm.

Whatever it is, it's +2 for the Krea.

But being in B2B w/ the Worm means open to the whole 'don't hit him, but ricochet something at him'.

I just can't imagine surviving his feat turn or having anything anti-infantry remaining
after his feat turn.

oh yeah, eMorghoul. I killed him so silly one time. He furried up his big old spineback monstrosity heavy beast (whatever its called). And then did his assassination run, but he just couldn't clear my infantry to my warcaster. I was running Kreos. I popped, killed all his warbeasts except the big one, and then walked up with my piper speeded up zealots, and blasted him to death. I think he was in base contact with that big beast, so I targeted the beast and splashed morghoul to death. I had one zealot left to spare.

An easy way around DEF 20 for most armies.
Move one of your own heavy warjacks 2-3 inches in front of the target depending on if it has reach of not. Then take another warjack and slam the back of your own warjack in front of the DEF 20 model, which is likely a warcaster.

In most cases, your going to hit your own warjack in the rear arc pretty easily, a collateral damage hit, but a heavy warjack on a small based warcaster will do a considerable amount of damage as most DEF 20 caster/ models, have low arm. Your own Heavy jack is likely to survive, but as most games include a win for caster kill, your pretty solid. Now if you in a situation where the model is DEF 20/ Arm 20, i'm curious what it is, how you let it get there, and how I can acquire one.

Targeting your own low defense models with AOE's is also easy to do.
I play searforge, usually against a high DEF caster I try...
Pop Durgen feat
Move forgeguard 1 inch in front,
Tune up Avalancher with Thor
Shoot the AOE into the forge guard,
Obliterate sacrifice stunty model, to hit a half str pow that boast+ addl damage roll.
I've flattened many a model to sacrificed Forge Guard.

njpc wrote:An easy way around DEF 20 for most armies.
Move one of your own heavy warjacks 2-3 inches in front of the target depending on if it has reach of not. Then take another warjack and slam the back of your own warjack in front of the DEF 20 model, which is likely a warcaster.

In most cases, your going to hit your own warjack in the rear arc pretty easily, a collateral damage hit, but a heavy warjack on a small based warcaster will do a considerable amount of damage as most DEF 20 caster/ models, have low arm. Your own Heavy jack is likely to survive, but as most games include a win for caster kill, your pretty solid. Now if you in a situation where the model is DEF 20/ Arm 20, i'm curious what it is, how you let it get there, and how I can acquire one.

Trouble is having abilities/spells that prevent knockdown. You'll only get the collateral
damage that way, which is awesome for someone like Borka (collateral damage is boosted
or additional on his feat turn, can't remember which), but not as awesome for others.

Kill his beasts.

Kill them all, unto the smallest transfer.

Too many players focus on the assassination run against Horde armies, without having the right tools to do it. But if you neuter their army by killing beasts, then you start impacting the resources a la fury and transfers.

Oh, and Epic Thragosh with a Harrier says "hi".

Depends on what you're doing.

(That's anyone with a Harrier).

Sometimes it's worth it to go after the higher DEF 'lock (not in this case) and do
more damage to the 'beasts that way.

Nods, if you can force the transfers to do the damage to the beasts, you'll likely do more pure damage that way than if you were attacking the beast.

Assuming you can get to their warlock, of course.

Madhammer on his feat turn can throw a LOAD of boosted AOE's towards casters, as Shae in the woods learned one game...toss in an avalancher and an Artillery Corps, and that's more boosted AOE's.

If they don't have a way to ignore knockdown, Pronto and a Basher are always solid choices.


Of course, 10 Steelhead Halberdiers can hit him pretty solidly. MAT 19 on the charge, POW 21+3D6 damage...

No CMA vs. eMorghoul if that is who you are talking about.

Oh yeah, he's got that anti CMA....Hurm.

Slams would be your best bet, even to the point of removing his anti-knockdown defence.

Slams can be tricky because you can't set-up the trajectory unless you have some kind of
combat slam. Regular slams force you to head right to the center of the target.

The resulting vector may not be beneficial. And if your slam rolls are anything like mine, you
roll 1 for distance when you need at least a 4, or 4 for distance when you need less
than that. In this case you need a slam that will take the model both through and past eMorghoul.

That's not always possible.

That's why you have Thor and his super pet, the Basher. Pronto sets up the vector, and anything slammed by the basher goes at least 3".

Slam, da da dah, da da dah, let the boys be boys!