Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello, I'm working on some fluff, and I was hoping if anyone could provide me with some information.

During the Great Crusade, the legions had a different structure than the modern Chapters, what was it and how did it function? I would like to understand the "plain" format, from which others derivated from.

As I understand it it was sort of like this:

Legion
Primarch
Primarch's Council of Advisers and/or Personal Guard Unit (who may or may not be chapter masters or Chaplains)
Chaplains, Librarians, and Chapter Masters (equal rank?)
Chapters
Company Captains
Sergeants
Squad Commanders
Legionaires


Is this correct? Am I mistaken? What role do Lieutenants play, and are there such ranks?

As much information as possible would be helpful.

The crusade was lead by a Warmaster (first the Emperor and then Horus), co-ordinating the different chapters led by a primarch. Most chapters then had a chapter master (Iron hands had a clan council), who handed orders down the the company leaders. The company leaders then commanded the squad leaders and comapny vehicle support. Officers of the first company would have more seniority over their equivalent roles in the second company etc. Chapter specialists like Chaplins, Librarians, would usually command units and jointly lead operations with the most senior officer of the operation.

I don't remember hearing mention of "Chapters" or "Chapter Masters" until after the Heresy during the Second Founding and onwards. AFAIK the chain of command was unique among many of the legions. The Sons of Horus had the Primarch, The Mournival, First Captain Calas Typhon, The Company Captains, Sergeants, Legionaries. The main variance seems to be at the level between company captain and Primarch. Additionally it seems that in almost every legion the title of "First Captain" is a billet that supercedes the rank of his fellow captains. Every Primarch seems to have had an "Equerry" or personal aid as well, drawn from among one of the company captains, Horus is an exception to this with the Mournival. Fulgrim on the other hand bestowed Eidolon with the title, "Lord Commander" in effect placing him above his peers in the same manner as a "First Captain". So far as I can tell, aside from honorifics such as, Company Champion, Equerry, and First Captain, The rank structure was as follows:

Primarch
First Captain
Company Captain
Sergeant
Battle-Brother

*Note: Chaplains, Tech-Marines, Librarians, and Apothecaries do not seem to be a part of the established rank structure, however they are bound to obey both the Primarch and the First Captain and serve on a peer/advisory role to the Company Captains.

**Further Note: The Equerry to the Primarch was usually drawn from amongst the Company Captains (i.e. Kharne of the World Eaters was captain fo the 8th assault company) and thus retained his command and position in the rank structure as a Company Captain.

First captain! Thats what I meant. :/

NumberZero wrote:Hello, I'm working on some fluff, and I was hoping if anyone could provide me with some information.

During the Great Crusade, the legions had a different structure than the modern Chapters, what was it and how did it function? I would like to understand the "plain" format, from which others derivated from.

As I understand it it was sort of like this:

Legion
Primarch
Primarch's Council of Advisers and/or Personal Guard Unit (who may or may not be chapter masters or Chaplains)
Chaplains, Librarians, and Chapter Masters (equal rank?)
Chapters
Company Captains
Sergeants
Squad Commanders
Legionaires


Is this correct? Am I mistaken? What role do Lieutenants play, and are there such ranks?

As much information as possible would be helpful.

Legion organization was as such.

Each legion was divided into Chapters which consisted of 10 companies. each chapter was led by a Chapter master, each company was led by a Captain.

the number of marines within each company wasn't fixed, but it varied between 100 and 500.

not all legions called these organizations by the same names. the Space Wolves had the same organization they have today.

Brother Heinrich wrote:I don't remember hearing mention of "Chapters" or "Chapter Masters" until after the Heresy during the Second Founding and onwards.

Chapter Master as a title is mentioned at least a couple times during either Rise of Horus or False Gods, I believe referring to a character from the Blood Angels. So it appears that it was around prior to and during the Heresy.

I stand Corrected, however I never remember them being mentioned among many of the now Traitor Legions in addition I believe the Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, and Iron Hands all had Company Captains as well. Not to question your statement but I would like to see where in the HH novels/Fluff it breaks down the Legion Hierarchy, just out of curiosity. AFAIK Companies were much larger back then, with a company captain being the equivalent of a chapter master now. I find it hard to believe that there was such staunch resistance to Guilliman's edicts if all the Legions already had Chapters organized in their structure.

in Angels of Darkness, one Fallen who is captured has the title "Chapter master"

I assume that the Ultramarines used chapters as a division within the legion hence why chapters were based on 1000 marines. The Dark Angels are mentioned as using chapters because the fallen Chapter Master makes mention of leading 1000 marines into battle during the crusades instead of the limited numbers used "currently".
The Space Wolves had their Great Companies which was probably a similar formation to the chapter.

Just because legions were broken into chapters though doesn't mean that they were like modern independent chapters. The Soul Drinkers are said to be made up of the assault units of the Imperial Fists Legion suggesting that it was an existing unit within the legion that specialised in assaults. Rather than splitting his legion into even chapters Dorn seems to have split off the surviving four chapters as they were - so the newest chapter became the Crimson Fists and so on.

The ultras were probably structured like the modern chapters already.

Grey Templar wrote:in Angels of Darkness, one Fallen who is captured has the title "Chapter master"

Chapter master Astelan, he plays a part in the Dark angel HH books.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:in Angels of Darkness, one Fallen who is captured has the title "Chapter master"

Chapter master Astelan, he plays a part in the Dark angel HH books.

yeah, that's the guy.

Ok, a lot of clearing up to do here.

Although there were some standards, there were no hard and fast rules for all the Legions. So, some Legions used chapters and some didn't. Some Primarchs had a special group of advisors, and some had bodyguards. Sometimes their 'equerry' would be a combat captain, such as in the Imperial Fists and World Eaters, and sometimes a separate rank, such as in the Luna Wolves. The only consistencies we can tell are the use of Captains to command companies and the idea that there is always a 'First Captain', commanding the 'First Company' or 'First Chapter'.

In the Emperor's Children specifically, the 'First Captain' rank was divided between two people, whose title was 'Lord Commander'. One of these was Eidolon. Fulgrim had no equerry, but did keep a bodyguard unit (Phoenix Guard). In the Thousand Sons, it seems that Ahriman was not only Magnus' equerry, but also first captain and leader of the 'bodyguard' squad (The Sekhmet). In the Luna Wolves, there was a separate Equerry, and the advisors were a 'Mournival' of four captains. On the other hand, the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels seem to rely on their 'First Captains' to be the main advisor to the Primarch'.

The Dark Angels, Word Bearers and Ultramarines are all known to use 'Chapters'. The Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Luna Wolves and Alpha Legion use 'Companies'. Equivalents in the Space Wolves and Iron Hands seem to be Great Companies and Clan Companies respectively. But a Luna Wolves Company and a Ultramarine Chapter could easily be the same size unit for all we know.

The Alpha Legion seem to have no ranks other than Captain and Brother, and are much more loose and less hierarchical, perhaps because they haven't been around as long. Alpharuis' personal little group includes the First and Second Captains, and we never hear of any others.


EDIT

And, having made my way a bit further into The Last Heretic last night, it seems the Word Bearers, although using chapters, have no fixed size for one. So they have 100 Chapters, and 100,000 Marines total, but some Chapters may only be three companies and some may be twenty or thirty companies strong.

It's different for every Legion, dependent on how the Primarchs want to organise it...

First off, well said ArbitorIan, that about sums it it up.

ArbitorIan wrote:
The Alpha Legion seem to have no ranks other than Captain and Brother, and are much more loose and less hierarchical, perhaps because they haven't been around as long. Alpharuis' personal little group includes the First and Second Captains, and we never hear of any others.

As to this, I feel that it's more due to the tactical flexibility of the Alpha Legion, rather than them simply being a new legion. Remember Alpharius was an outspoken proponent of flexible command structure and adaptability to any situation, using ingenuity from any and all ranks to achieve the most economical and effective victory.

Brother Heinrich wrote:First off, well said ArbitorIan, that about sums it it up.

ArbitorIan wrote:
The Alpha Legion seem to have no ranks other than Captain and Brother, and are much more loose and less hierarchical, perhaps because they haven't been around as long. Alpharuis' personal little group includes the First and Second Captains, and we never hear of any others.

As to this, I feel that it's more due to the tactical flexibility of the Alpha Legion, rather than them simply being a new legion. Remember Alpharius was an outspoken proponent of flexible command structure and adaptability to any situation, using ingenuity from any and all ranks to achieve the most economical and effective victory.

You're reading too much into the lack of information about this legion.

The classic Roman Legion was organised by centuries, and aside from a few officers that were often political appointments, the legion was run by the centurions with a senior centurion being the man who reported to the tribune or consul in charge of the legion. This senior centurion was the centurion of the first century. Despite the century being the basic unit of the legion, centuries were grouped into cohorts of six centuries each, I think for administrative reasons.
What I see here is the basis for what the astartes legions were based on. The basic unit is the company with its captain and the first company provides the senior captain who reports to the Primarch (as adviser - either individually or part of a group). Beyond that there is another level of organisation which sees the companies grouped into larger units which are called names such as chapter or great company. It would seem that ten is the number as there are ten marines in a squad, ten squads in a company and ten companies in the super unit.
As such the chapter type unit would be like a battalion and the legion itself would be the regiment. Certainly according to the fluff the later IG regiments can be anything from 2000 up to legion sized themselves suggesting that past the battalion level, the Imperium is more interested in keeping military formations contained within their own ethnic framework than within a specific unit size like brigade, division or army. The super regiments probably do divide themselves like this but the Imperium is only interested in overall numbers it seems, not how they're made up at that level.

cadbren wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:First off, well said ArbitorIan, that about sums it it up.

ArbitorIan wrote:
The Alpha Legion seem to have no ranks other than Captain and Brother, and are much more loose and less hierarchical, perhaps because they haven't been around as long. Alpharuis' personal little group includes the First and Second Captains, and we never hear of any others.

As to this, I feel that it's more due to the tactical flexibility of the Alpha Legion, rather than them simply being a new legion. Remember Alpharius was an outspoken proponent of flexible command structure and adaptability to any situation, using ingenuity from any and all ranks to achieve the most economical and effective victory.

You're reading too much into the lack of information about this legion.

I disagree, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

Brother Heinrich wrote:
I disagree, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

I don't know why you posted that link, it doesn't support your position. It actually says that the legion had ranks which implies structured units or ranks are irrelevant, particularly in the approach mentioned in that link that the legion took to operating. As anyone could input into a tactical discussion then rank held no status so why have it? They had ranks because they had units to which those ranks applied, they still needed to administer their legion and they did so through structures used in common by all the other legions.