Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If a weapon causes D6 or D3 wounds, do you take a save for each of them?

For example:
A GUO has balesword and wounds an empire general. The GUOs controlling player rolls for amount of wounds caused and inflicts 4 wounds. Does the empire general rolls 4 armour saves, or just one?

Thanks in advance.

No. The rules state they are multipled AFTER making saves. So you make 1 save, if you fail it becomes D3/D6

The "multiple Wounds" special rule only takes effect after saves have been taken. So he would only take one save. If he fails all of his saves (Armour, Ward, Regen) then you would roll the d6 wounds.

Actually I think regen is taken after multiple wounds, but ward and armor are definitely taken before. Anybody care to confirm?

The rule says each unsaved wound is multiplied by whatever is in the brackets. Since regeneration saves that model from the wound I would assume that it's after he fails the regen save that the multiplier would come into effect.

Regen is before, as with any other save.

Remember it is ward OR regen now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Regen is before, as with any other save.

We have been playing regen is after multiplying wounds, as supported by the description of "Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds" on 45. Here's the important bit:

"... roll to hit and to wound as normal and then take armor saves and ward saves that apply. Finally, for each such wound that is not saved, roll the appropriate dice to determine how many wounds are caused."

The regeneration section suggests that regen functions like an armor or ward save, but as it only tells us how it discounts "wounds" there is no contradiction with the above quote, or some specification that it happens before the multiplier. This is something of a negative proof, but since regen is definitely not listed as happening before the multiplier, we can only assume that it happens afterwords.

It hasn't had a huge impact in our games, though it means putting at least some wounds on tough regen-ing things with each D3/D6 shot. Overall I find it an interesting caveat for the ward > regen relation.

- Salvage

Regeneration is taken instead of a ward save (pg 74 see also "special regenerate saving throw"). Multiple wounds are kicked in after Armor/Ward/Regeneration saves (pg 73 aka "Each unsaved wound", it doesn't specify it has to be from armor or a ward).

If you make the regeneration roll, there isn't any unsaved wounds to multiply.

Regeneration happens before Multiple Wounds.

As above.

Regen is subsitution for Ward. Where you would take Ward saves you can, instead, take a regen.

So your negative proof is foiled by a substitution proof

Well ... in the case of multiple wounds I'm still not convinced. I don't believe that the equation of "regen = ward (but with flaming & KB caveats)" is so firmly locked down by the text on 74, compared to how specific the multi-wound text is on 45.

Frankly I think the best support for rolling regen before multiplying is because it's simpler and faster, not because it's expressly supported by the rules of 8th edition. Another moment where what was intended is mystified by inconsistent writing ...

- Salvage

well also play the ward or regen save stipulation, ALL relivant saves are taken for the wound, and then it is multiplied if the AR save, ward/regen save fails.

example: a HPA is hit and wounded by a bolt thrower. the HPA has no armor save or ward save but has a regeneration save so he rolls this and fails. the opponent then rolls for how many lifepoints of dmage the bolt did , and gets 2.

actually i like the waysaves are made now, no more Bllod knights with 2+, 4+ , 4+ against shooting.......

@ Boss: your right about regen not equaling a ward save, the 2 are totaly seperate, you may use a ward save or a regen save but not both, the biggest difference between the 2 is that a ward save may or may not be effected by magical attacks such as in some cases with wood elves) , and that a regen save cannot be used against a flame attack.
however, you do have to choose after armour saves if youwill use a ward save or a regen save, and this happens before wounds are multiplied.

Hawkins wrote:@ Boss: your right about regen not equaling a ward save, the 2 are totaly seperate, you may use a ward save or a regen save but not both, the biggest difference between the 2 is that a ward save may or may not be effected by magical attacks such as in some cases with wood elves) , and that a regen save cannot be used against a flame attack.
however, you do have to choose after armour saves if youwill use a ward save or a regen save, and this happens before wounds are multiplied.

Exactly, which especially means something when a unit with both ward and regen - a GUO for example - takes a hit from a cannon. Does he go for 1x 5+ to stop the whole thing, and risk taking a hitherto unknown load of wounds? Or 1-6x 4+ to stop the wounds directly, with no uncertainty to how many wounds are possible? He makes his choice, and either rolls the ward or has his opponent see how many wounds he will have to toss regen at. A dicey decision to make some times!

When playing that it multiples after all saves of any kind, the decision is far simpler. Is the attak flaming? No, then regen ftw. Yes, then ward it is. Done.

- Salvage

Boss Salvage, I think pg. 74 is pretty clear. It tells you exactly when you take regen saves - after armor saves, instead of ward.

How do you explain "after it has failed any armor save it may have, instead of taking a ward save" otherwise? It is supposed to happen at the same time a ward save would. There is no timing difference.

unfortunately the rules are crystal clear in regards to the order of what happens. there is no greay area at all.
under regen page 74 it says if you failed your armour save (if you had one) you may use regen instead of a ward save it says you must choose one or the other.

on page 73 it refers to multi wounds only being aplied to unsaved wounds. so first you have to atempt to save the wounds before the multi wound rule comes into play.

so the first order of buisness is to get the Armour save out of the way. then you may or must use a ward save or a regeneration save. if you fail you apply the multi wound

*checks ward save page 44..... ok second last paragraph supports this, after armour save you then take the ward save. as were assuming you also have the regen save, you now decide whitch 2nd save to take and apply it.

*checks multi wound creatures and multi wound weapons page 45... here it looks a little grey but its more dealing with distribution of wounds and not the generation of wounds.


above it same page.... hits inflicting multi wounds....
ok the very first sentance states again 'unsaved wounds'


FAQ??? nope.... index.... nope.

so as you see, there is a clear order you should fallow. but its your gaming group if everyone is cool doing it as you discribe it, then cool. a rule aplied to all people playing everytime is fair.

I still think that (some of) you aren't grasping the specificity of p. 45, since you all keep citing me p. 74 and not dealing with where multi-wounds happen ...

Killjoy00 wrote:Boss Salvage, I think pg. 74 is pretty clear. It tells you exactly when you take regen saves - after armor saves, instead of ward.

How do you explain "after it has failed any armor save it may have, instead of taking a ward save" otherwise? It is supposed to happen at the same time a ward save would. There is no timing difference.

I will however drop it at this point. The above comment on timing is a good one, though Hawkins I seriously doubt the issue is crystal clear, or any kind of clear. I'll probably run it by my opponent whenever it comes up and ask them how they play it, because I really don't think it's set in stone, though thankfully it isn't a huge deal if you go the "we know how regen works from 7th edition" way or the "uhhh still trying to make sense of 8th" way (whatever that might be!)

As an aside this did come up at Crossroads in at least one case - there were double hydras on like a fifth of the tables, and a few a-bombs as well - and I can't remember how it was ruled, though the louder parties involved were trying to argue along my lines here

- Salvage

Pg. 45 isn't specific at all. In fact, it says you roll AFTER you take armor and ward saves. Regen says you take it after armor, instead of ward. You take the regen when you would take a ward, instead of taking a ward.

BRB states that regen is "instead of taking a ward save," stated before indicating that you cannot take both. After armor, instead of ward... seems pretty clear cut that regenerate is meant to be rolled at the same point that ward saves are.

ok Boss, im up for letting it rest as well, whats important is that you and your group have fun and use the same rules consistantly. have fun at your next game, and tell me how you do,