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So if stomp/thunderstomp are autohhiting attacks with ASL, does giving the crature ASF (by using lore of light most likely) allow those to be made in initiative order?

From the Warhammer FAQ:

Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special rules, equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits?
(p76)
A: No.

So even if you give a model ASF (or if it has it already like a Keeper of Secrets), it will not change the Stomp attacks.

I think that's right on, RZ. Good to know where it's written down as I'd heard someone talking about this for a slaanesh giant (i.e., it has ASF so it's thunderstomp would happen at initiative).

Your quote refutes that idea...

Yes, I started to reply without the quote, but realized it isn't really helping if you can't point out where to go looking for the rule if someone asks. So I went and looked it up!

I was that someone, so I will elaborate, especially as I was just working up the effort to post the question here as well

Here's my argument for allowing ASF to make Stomping hit at I.:

1: From pg 76 stomp is in addition to other close combat attacks, implying it is a CC attack. No problems there.

2: "A Stomp has the Always Strikes Last special rule, and inflicts 1 automatic hit at the user's Strength..." So it is an attack, has the ASL rule, and automatically hits. Whee!

3: ASL special rule says "If the model has both this rule and ASF, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's I." Ok, so ASL + ASF on an attack cancels out and uses I instead. No problem.

4: Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special rules, equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits?
(p76)
A: No.

So the FAQ says that the HITs (not attacks) do not get special rules, for example Killing Blow, Flaming, etc.

5: Key assumption: the order and hierarchy of combat is : Attacks, Hits, Wounds.
Models make a number of Attacks on their profile with certain effects (a Str tied to it that is carried through the process, an I defining when it happens, AP, etc.)
After rolling the To Hit, you have a number of Hits that have certain properties (still Str, Poisoned auto wounds). You then roll 1 dice for each Hit to get the Wounds. These wounds then can have effects the previous Attacks/Hits didn't, such as causing Killing blow.

The point of all that was to show that Attacks are not Hits which are not Wounds, and that what affects one and subsequent does not necessarily affect the previous. Specifically, only ATTACKS care about I values and ASF/ASL, not Hits or Wounds.

My contention is that Stomp is an ATTACK that is ASL (much like an attack with a great sword), then automatically hits and does stuff. While the FAQ specifies that the HITS (and therefore Wounds) may not benefit from any special rules or gear etc., the Attacks themselves can. The fact that the only things that modify attacks are I changes, WS and Str, and the last two are defined by the attack (autohit, Str of the model) causes the confusion.

Problem with that of course Wehrkind is that Thunderstomp is not actually a CC attack.

Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed as a shooting attack

By being an unusual attack, Stomp has its own set of rules.

Good point Leghnsherr, but the point wasn't so much that it was a CC attack, but that it was an Attack. I did put that in a really confusing way though, sorry.

The breath weapon bit is a good thing to bring up though, as it specifies it is an attack, and when it hits (at I). So you make the Attack at I, and then get some auto hits. Same concept, except that the Stomp attack has an extra rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is probably a strong point that you need permission to use rules affecting attacks in conjunction with special attacks though.

Sorry Wehrkind, I forgot who it was that said it

And yes, really good to see everyone quoting the exact rules in here, makes it much easier to discern the right answer (although with that said I'm still in the process of discerning... )

Well, its not a Close Combat attack and ASF allows you to strike first in close combat.

The two are not connected.

The rules contained within Thunderstomp tell you that it strikes last. So you have an unusual attack, with the rules telling you when to attack with it, so you cannot apply ASF to the stomp.

I think its fairly clear.

Well, be clear: Stomp says it has the Always Strikes Last rule, not just that it strikes last. The fact that it has that rule is rather key
Further, and this is important, both ASL and ASF have the EXACT same wording of "Models with this special rule (or who are attacking with a weapon that grants this special rule) always strike first/last in close combat, regardless of initiative."

If one can not apply to an attack, then the other can't either by what is written in the ASF/ASL rules. It might be a fine argument to say that Stomp is given the rule that it could otherwise not have, much like an attack with a weapon, but then the attack with the weapon interacts with the model's ability, so we are back at square one.

Well, in this case I would argue that ASL specifically applies to Stomp because you are told to do so.

We have no such ruling for ASF, and we know that ASF does not affect unusual attacks.

As above.

Stomp has been specifically told it is ASL, even though this is an unusual situation.

Uhm... no we don't actually. ASF doesn't specify what sort of attacks it effects, just the the model strikes first in close combat. Not that their CC attacks always strike first but nothing else. We could assume that the words assume strikes to equal attacks, but then saying that it affects nothing else really isn't obvious. After all, troll vomit replaces an attack, but it isn't specified when. We just assume it happens at the same time as the attack it replaces.

A better example is Mr Longshanks the Giant himself, who has nothing BUT special attacks (and are even called such) but who can get ASF. Probably an oversight, but they didn't correct it in the FAQ either, so there is precedent.

Giants attacks...

"To determine what happens, each close combat phase roll a D6 on one of the following tables when it is the Giant's turn to fight."
ASF means its the Giants turn to fight first.

The Giant is attacking in the close combat phase with his randomly determined close combat attack. It even tells you when to use it, which gives a clear indication that ASF can in fact affect his randomly determined close combat attack.

Troll attacks...

"A unit of Trolls can make Vomit Attacks instead of ordinary attacks during close combat."
So, if you have ASF on your Trolls, then when it is their turn to attack you use vomit as their close combat attack.

In both these cases we are dealing with close combat attacks, and as such they can be affected by ASF and ASL.

We are specifically told that Stomp is NOT a close combat attack. In this case, Stomp can neither be affected by ASF or ASL. ***Except it tells us to apply ASL to the Stomp***

To put it in different terms, Stomp does not use the rules for normal close combat, instead it uses its own rules. That is why the other FAQ mentions that special rules do not apply to Stomp. They chose the word hits (poor choice) but then further clarified the rule by elaborating that it is NOT a CC attack.

That is just it though, the giant DOES NOT have close combat attacks, but special attacks. He doesn't even have a number of attacks in his profile, but his "turn to fight" is determined by his initiative or ASF, just like every other attack.

When does Stomp happen? Oh, it has ASL, so that tells you. ASL also tells you what to do when a model also has ASF.

When do breath weapons happen? At Initiative. That one actually has a better argument for not being affected by ASF than Stomp, as it dictates the point that it happens, unlike Stomp which has a Universal Special Rule to tell you when it goes off, a rule that interacts with another USR. If Stomp actually did say "this occurs after all other attacks have been made and simultaneously with ASL" then there wouldn't be a problem.

I just don't think you can ignore the rules in ASL in regards to how it interacts with a model that has ASF when the definition of "When do you use stomp?" is "When ASL tells you to." In this case, that's at I value.

@wehrkind - except that the FAQ specifically states that stomp is not affected by any special rules (aka ASF from mark of slaanesh) and therefore will always ALWAYS be ASL.

A Giants attack might be special, but that does not necessarily mean that it is not a close combat attack. Can you point to a ruling that states that the Giants Special Attack is not a close combat attack?

I can for Stomp. Its right there in the FAQ. Until you can show that the special attack is not also a close combat attack, the 2 are different, and must be worked out differently.

So, logic would follow:

1) Stomp is not a Close Combat Attack
2) ASF affects Close Combat Attacks
3) Stomp is not affected by ASF

So when would Stomp attack?

Well, its right there in the rule, it strikes last.

**Edit**
Reading the Giants rules, it makes no mention of the attack being either close combat, or not. It happens in the close combat phase, so I would make the argument that in fact the Giants special attack is STILL a close combat attack.

Then you might say that Stomp is also during the close combat phase, and as such should be a close combat attack, yet the rules specifically tell us otherwise in this case. As do the rules for breath weapons, and other unique attacks that happen during the close combat phase but are not actually close combat attacks.

You cannot relate the two without a specific ruling doing so. With that being said, all we are left with is the rules that we are given, which also happen to be rather clear.

Stomp does not benefit from any special rules to hit (yes hit, I realize the wording) and it is a unique attack that strikes at the end of the close combat phase.

Greenbay: we covered that. The HITS are not affected, not the attack itself. I would be sympathetic to an argument that said "GW meant attacks, but was sloppy" but hits and attacks are two very different things. Hits, for instance, don't care about Initiative order, but are resolved in batch with the attacks that caused them.

Lehnsherr: Excellent point. While GW's technical writing skills might hamstring us here again, I would point to the entry in the WoC book (I don't have the others it shows up in)
Pg 64 Attack stat = Special
Pg 65 first paragraph :"Giant Special Attacks: Giants do not attack in the same way as other creatures, though they select their victims as normal." There are lots of results of what that special attack is.

Really, I think page 65 drives the nail in that one. They do not make attacks as other creatures. They don't even have an attack stat as such. If you are limiting the definition of "Close Combat Attacks" to "those strikes made in close combat and numbered by the attack stat in the profile" then the giant doesn't have any Close Combat Attacks. I think a reading of the close combat rules starting page 46 and going into "Who can strike" "How many attacks" etc would rule out the giant having CC attacks.

Also, ASF doesn't say it affects CC attacks. It just says they strike first in close combat. Lots of things happen in close combat other than close combat attacks, apparently, like breath weapons. So step 2 in your logic is incorrect as ASF would have to ONLY affect close combat attacks.

I kind of suspect that we are going to be knocking this one back and forth over the net for a while (though it has been fun!) just because of the rather unclear nature of the rules. Which is weird; I don't get why they wouldn't define classes of attacks in the close combat phase such as "Close Combat Attacks: the attacks made with a weapon listed in the profile" and "Special/Unique attacks: Attacks that do/do not use other special rules by default, only using X" or whatever.

"And determined by their attack stat" would be a closer definition.

They make attacks, attacks that are special. Special attacks ARE attacks, just a subset.

Sorry Nos, lost track of what you were referring to; are you saying that special attacks are a subset of close combat attacks, or that Giants in particular have close combat attacks that are special, but are not special close combat attacks?

I think I just pulled something in my brain... need more coffee

I just meant that the giant HAS attacks, attacks that are special

Again though, you say it drives the nail into the coffin, but it doesn't.

The Stomp rule clearly states that Stomp is not a close combat attack, whereas a Giant has a special attack. You are making an assumption that because it is listed as special, that it means it is not close combat. There is no written rule for this anywhere, just assumptions.

And yes, ASF clearly states it is close combat oriented. The rule...

"Models with this special rule always strife first in **close combat** regardless of initiative."

ASF is about close combat, no more, no less. Stomp IS NOT a close combat attack. That is given in the FAQ. It cannot be more clear. ASF is about close combat, Stomp is not close combat, therefore ASF cannot affect stomp.

The Giant can have ASF, and the Giants normal attack will be affected by ASF because it is a close combat attack (that also happens to be a special attack). Stomp is not a close combat attack, so it may not be affected by ASF.

Then the argument becomes, how can ASL affect Stomp.... It can because you are told it does.

No amount of rules lawyering can get around these written rules.

I don't think I'm a stupid guy, but I'm having trouble following some of these contortions.

If a model's special rule of ASF can be applied to Stomp and Thunderstomp attack, then what else does? Armor piercing (Keepr of Secrets)? Flaming (Lord of Change)? Killing Blow (Juggernaut)?

Why make the argument on behalf of ASF and not any of these other things?

Well, in that case it would be because of the wording Hits as opposed to Attacks.

In this case, he is correct, which is why I believe there was a second FAQ. The one about Stomp not being a close combat attack is a newer FAQ than the previous one.

The original FAQ states "Do Stomp or Thunderstomp HITS benefit....", and because the special rules you listed are in regards to Hits, then you can ignore them. ASF is about the order of attacks which occurs BEFORE hits, so it would be exempt from that original FAQ.

The second FAQ would be the clarifier to that, by exluding Stomp from being an actual close combat attack, and classifying it as its own unique rule, then in order to figure out how to use Stomp you would have to look at the rule for it.

**Edit**
My grammar is horrible today

p 67: Armour Piercing

"Wounds caused in close combat by a model with this special rule (or who is attacking with a weapon that has this special rule) inflict a further -1 armor save modifier..."

So would you be able to argue that this special rule affects wounds caused (not attacks) and so should affect stomps?

I don't think it works like that, but this is the road we're heading down.

Oh I don't think it works like that either Zeke...

What we are doing is pointing out the obvious issues with a poor choice of words by GW. Ultimately the word Hits should have been replaced simply with Thunderstomp does not benefit from the special abilities of the model using it, but I am sure someone would still find some loop hole with it.

I think that its pretty obvious that Stomp/Tstomp are attacks that are resolved at the end of the combat, at the base S of the model that is stomping. The 2 FAQ's are designed in a way to reach this goal, but I think this is a case where more words create more issues.

So, by your and Nos' argument, you are saying there are 3 types of attack that happen in the Close Combat Phase:
1: Close combat attacks (the attacks you get in your profile with a weapon)
2: Special Close Combat Attacks: the thing the Giant has instead. These are not "Special attacks" but rather "Close Combat Attacks that are special."
3: Special attacks like Breath weapons that follow none of the rule for attacks in the close combat phase.

I find this distinction a little strange, since there are zero references to types of attacks that occur in close combat as such, and rather just "close combat attacks" and things "in addition to other close combat attacks". There might well be a nascent framework in there, but it really isn't defined in a way that would let us say "This is a CC attack, this is a special CC attack, and this is a Special Attack that happens to occur in CC."

Besides, "IN close combat" refers to the phase it happens in, not what it happens to. That would be 'WITH close combat attacks".

I don't think the giant is a good thing to use to try to find a standard, since it is very odd in and of itself, and most of the recent changes to the WoC FAQ concerned it .

Also, it's "special" attacks are obviously referring to the fact that you have to roll on the table for them. I definitely think that distinguishes it from other "special" attacks like breath weapons or stomp/thunderstomp... it's just an unfortunately overlapping word choice.

But then again, I'm not really up on the wordplay here! (although following with interest... I think RZ's points above are well made, too)

Well, the distinction is actually there.

Breath weapons are a unique attack that occur during the close combat phase, but are not close combat attacks.

Stomp is a unique attack that occurs during the close combat phase, but it is also not a close combat attack.

These are expressly written into the rulebooks and FAQs. You can choose to ignore them if you like.

So when you say that there are "zero references" I tend to disagree, point to these rulings, and wonder why you don't count them as references.

Any other attack that occurs during the close combat phase would have to be a close combat attack by defintion. I think it would become obvious that unless given another rule, everything else would be considered a close combat attack, so yes, a giants attack is a close combat attack unless told otherwise. It functions in a special way, but we are not told that it is not a close combat attack, therefore it is. I am sure there are other attacks in the game that are also Unique but I do not have every army book handy.

Why is the distinction important?

Because we disregard the rules for normal close combat and instead follow the rules for these specific rulings.

**Edit**

You know, now that I look at the original FAQ more... lets have some fun with it...

A stomp automatically hits. You never go to the attack phase, you just roll to hit. In fact, its not even classified as an attack in the rulebook, other than the wording "in addition to its other close combat attacks" (pg. 76) which does not mean its technically an attack. You just cause Stomp hits on the other unit.

So, if you skip the attack portion and go right to the Hits, then we can apply the first FAQ saying that the hits caused by a stomp cannot benefit from the ASF ruling.

The next question of course would be, if its not an attack how then are we allowed to resolve it?

Look to the second FAQ, its a unique attack that occurs during the CC phase, that has ASL.

Real quick, as I am already into my sleeping pills and need to pass out

1: The references bit is a line anywhere in the book that says "There are different kinds of attacks that can be made in close combat. We call the normal attacks a model makes Close combat attacks" or something similar.

2: The giant's attacks are every bit as special as stomp, as they do not roll to hit or follow any of the normal processes for attacks. Calling them attacks that do something else (often entirely different from an attack!) is a little questionable

3: Stomp is just an attack that auto hits. You don't roll to hit, you auto hit, then roll to wound (though I think you knew that and mistyped ) The argument that you 'just cause stomp hits" actually is pretty convincing, but I have to wonder why they chose to give the attack/Stomp/whatever the rule Always Strikes Last if they did not intend for all the effects of the rule to apply instead of just saying "this special attack always occurs at the end of the round" or something like that. For instance, the breath weapon specifies that you use the Initiative, leaving no room for question.

I dunno. I wouldn't try and pull it in a tourney, but I think there is a better than even chance that GW actually meant it to work that way.