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Hello all.

Do Snotlings block Line of Site (LOS)? This came up during a recent game when a unit of Archers tried to fire into an enemy unit :The Ene

Enemy

Snotlings

Goblins /l\
l
The Enemy Unit was not in Base Contact with he Snotlings. The question was raised due to the height of the Snotlings...

Thanks for all the help.

Cheers.

Michael Collins

Not in 8th edition, I believe. Looking at my goblins and snots, TLOS means the goblins can see over the snots to shoot most enemies (unless they are snots or rat swarms or something else really short)

Thank you for the clarification.

Cheers.

Michael Collins

Line of Sight now goes on True Line Of Sight as mentioned before. In unclear situations you have to get down to the "Models eye level" so see if said model can see a BODY part of the enemy (Not swords, banners, wings etc.). If this is possible then yes, they have Line of Sight.

Should also be noted that depending on how much of the body is visible soft/hard cover modifiers might be in effect.

BRB reference.
Pg 10 for Line of Sight ruling;
Pg 41 for Unit visibility and the level of cover it is behind.

Does figure height even matter?

My understanding of 8th LOS rules is that only hills and buildings block LOS. Any LOS drawn thru troops will provide hard cover (-2 to hit) modifiers. Does not matter if the troops are giants or snotlings - the result is the same.

I'd be interested in clarification on what this rule is and how people are playing it, as well.

So far, I've taken almost no soft/hard cover modifiers in my games, but I feel like it should be extremely common with the new rules...

My understanding of it relates somewhat from past 40k experience. If you can see the full model there is no modifier. If majority of the model is hidden (regardless of whether it's another unit or obstacle) it's got hard cover. Soft cover rarely comes into play as most of the time it relates to whether a model or unit is in base contact with a fence/baracade/etc.

If your target is partially obscured by your own troops, it is hard cover. This means you trace line of sight and, if your troops LOS is blocked even the slightest by other troops in front, i.e. part f the enemy body is covered, it is hard cover.

So yes, actual height DOES matter - a model on a dragon wont suffer a hard cover penalty from small troops in front. A swarm right in front of you wont give a hard cover penalty - however it MAY if it is right next to an enemy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If your target is partially obscured by your own troops, it is hard cover. This means you trace line of sight and, if your troops LOS is blocked even the slightest by other troops in front, i.e. part f the enemy body is covered, it is hard cover.

Did actually miss the crucial line of "We also count intervening units as hard cover" Though in brackets it says "if they obscure the line of sight to the majority of the target, of course" afterwards.

Given that I'd say that if more then 50% of the model/unit can be seen they don't benefit from hard cover.

Wow!

The Enemy unit in question was a Bretonnian Infantry block of thirty troops.

The Gobbos could easily see the Troops even with the Snotlings, which were below half the height of the Humans , about fifteen inches of space away.

What say you?

Thanks for all the replies. I think this is a Rule that should be clearly defined by the WHFB people...

Michael Collins

Polish Para wrote:I think this is a Rule that should be clearly defined by the WHFB people...

If that's a reference to my blasphemous reference of 40K gameplay before it should be noted I haven't touched that system in 2 years and was just referring to how several of the changes to WHFB 8th ed has been based of that system from memory


But any ways, in that situation I'm sticking to if the model can see more than 50% of the target there would be no cover modifier.

TLOS is exactly that.

for ease of reference

take a laser pointer and put it on your guys shoulder.

wave it around at the enemy unit you want to target

if the red dot touches any part of the enemy units models you can "See" them.

now determine hard/soft cover and other modifiers.

I don't think being able to "see" the enemy is the question here, lixuluana. With TLOS, you can usually see the unit (and if not can check just as you describe). The question is when is it benefitting from hard cover... nos' and others' remarks about any part of the body being covered sounds about right to me.

Taking into account Jake's quote, I'm assuming that at least half the models in the unit have to have part of their body obscured.

Just having trouble working this out in practice, but I'm sure we'll get the hang of it...

I like the laser pointer idea. Takes away some disagreements. I'll need to pick one up.

The laser pointer tells you if you can shoot at the unit at all. I.E. do you have ANY los to the unit.

Hard cover requires being able to see, clearly, at least 50% of the unit you are shooting at, disregarding any "cover" produced by the models in the target unit (i.e. the guys in the front rank dont cover the guys in the back ranks!) - ENTIRELY clearly.

So if 3 of 5 guys in the front rank have their legs obscured, and are obscured because of your troops, that is hard cover.

That interpretation makes the most sense to me... I think it's just people getting used to using TLOS for fantasy that has caused a lot of the hickups here!

Also, things like the moveable trees on the large forest bases- we move them out of the way to put a unit in there, so if someone wants to see/shoot through, I just assume the trees ares providing a cover modifier rather than blocking LOS, even if they actually happen to be completely blocking with wherever they are on the stand at that moment. Wouldn't be fair to move them out of the way for movement, yet claim their exact position to be blocking TLOS when someone wants to shoot through them.

One of those fudge things that's hard to account for...

Woods are a pain in 40k, but 40k has area terrain rules to abstract them (and ruins) just a little!

Is it not the case when you're shooting through a forest that it's assumed the unit can see through it but it automatically gives a soft/hard cover modifier?

No - you use True Line of Sight. In both 40k and fantasy, if you cant see your target you cant shoot it* - unless they are in a building, however you are then targetting the building.


*except for Barrage and Impaler cannons. But theres always an exception.

So to be clear, if I can see majority of a unit through a forest terrain piece there is no cover modifiers for me shooting at them? Even though logically my hail of arrows has to pass through a forest full of trees to reach them?

If you can CLEARLY see, i.e. not even the tiniest bit covered, the majority then yes, you can shoot through with no penalty (from memory, possible that the woods rules impose an additional restriction like area terrain in 40k) at all.

However assuming the woods have a base and any sort of trees in the way the chances of this occurring are slim. This assumes you actually have woods with more than one tree in them, of course. One of the big changes fantasy is going through is that now terrain actually makes the game more fun....

If you're referring to all the new special rules that have been added to individual pieces of terrain I wouldn't say more fun. It's just more stuff to remember and to be honest half the time all the little rules are missed because people are concentrating on their units, not the terrain's effects..

But any ways, in terms on forests, they count as soft cover as per pg 119 in the BRB. This is regardless of whether the unit is 'clearly' seen or not. If LOS is drawn through it, it provides cover.

I meant more that sending a ranked unit into a forest is no longer a forget about them for the game move. Or that running into a 1" rock (impassable) kills a unit of 50 guys.

Except for the unit to be considered "in cover" you would have to have >50% of the unit being partially or better covered by the forest.

Misunderstood you there, in that respects yes, much more enjoyable.

The rules also state if you have to trace a LOS through a forest (i.e because they are beyond the forest) they count as being in soft cover.

Ah, fair enough - I did caveat that it was true, unless they made an exception for woods. In 40k they have area terrain, which works ina similar way (except you need to trace through two elements of the terrain, not just anywehere)

Ah, that's good to know- and makes sense since woods should really be denser than it is practical to make them and still have it be useable in actual games.

What's this about a unit being killed by running into an impassable rock? What situation are you referring to (fleeing?). I thought that'd been done away with in 8th...

It was. Nos was just referring to rules from 7th that were a gigantic PITA and a huge swing on the game. Forest luring was the worst vs Frenzy and Hatred units.

RITides - yep, I was referencing 7th ed, where planet bowling ball was the preferred situation for a lot of armies. Of course now a lot of armies STILL prefer it, but armies which want to move forward can at least wander near terrain and have a chance of playing a part in the game...

Edit: Ninja'ed! Got it

I do like the effect of forests on ranked units now (no longer steadfast) as opposed to in 7th when the moved at half their movement speed (basically 2" a turn for most units, or 2.5" at best). Made wood elf tree-singing a bear to deal with, though whereas now it's rather pedestrian...

You just have to use it creatively - charging with that nice skirmish unit as you're passing through the woods, so the skirmish are steadfast and you arent...