Dark Angels borrowing Space Marine codex gear.

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**Devilsquid**

Salutations Dakkaites...

I'm just trying to get a general consensus in regarding using wargear from the Space Marine Codex for my budding Deathing list, in specific Storm Shields, Cyclone Missle Launchers, and the Narcathium.

The SM codex versions of these items are far superior, and even share the same "fluff" before the rules as the same items in the Dark Angels codex.

Would you, as a player, begrudge someone the use of the 'updated' items in their Dark Angel codex?

Inquiring terminators want to know.

**ChrisCP**

Yes. Use the codex with the fancy stuff if you want the fancy stuff.

**Grakmar**

Devilsquid wrote:Salutations Dakkaites...

I'm just trying to get a general consensus in regarding using wargear from the Space Marine Codex for my budding Deathing list, in specific Storm Shields, Cyclone Missle Launchers, and the Narcathium.

The SM codex versions of these items are far superior, and even share the same "fluff" before the rules as the same items in the Dark Angels codex.

Would you, as a player, begrudge someone the use of the 'updated' items in their Dark Angel codex?

Inquiring terminators want to know.

I'm not familiar with the differences. But, as a general rule: If you want the newer versions of weapons, you need to use the newer codexes. If it's a fairly minor upgrade (as in, things don't need to be re-costed) I'd have no problem with a house rule to upgrade them.

But, this is not how the rules read, so don't expect any competitive environment to allow this.

**Gwar!**

Devilsquid wrote:Would you, as a player, begrudge someone the use of the 'updated' items in their Dark Angel codex?

Yes, because you are not following the rules.

If you want to use the DA codex, you use ALL the DA codex, or none of it. Would you let me use Eldar rules for my Space Wolves? No, you wouldn't and this is exactly the same thing.

Each codex is balanced Internally. You can't expect someone to let your whole army get a 3++ save for no additional points cost.

**kill dem stunties**

Exactly, deathwing with vanilla codex wargear is the height of cheese.

**Devilsquid**

Really?

Having a second shot with a Cyclone missle launcher, a 3+ all purpose invunerable save instead of a 4+ melee save, and a 30pt narcatheium that's only allowed due to a special character is considered cheese?

Huh.

And the Space Wolves using Eldar gear is a ridiculous comparison, because it's not the same gear. My question was using identically named and described gear from fundamentally similar armies (look, Space Marines!).

Though valid point on having nothing but Stormshields on Deathwing Termies...with, you know, no guns.

Thanks for your responses.

**Gwar!**

Devilsquid wrote:Really?

Having a second shot with a Cyclone missle launcher, a 3+ all purpose invunerable save instead of a 4+ melee save, and a 30pt narcatheium that's only allowed due to a special character is considered cheese?

Huh.

And the Space Wolves using Eldar gear is a ridiculous comparison, because it's not the same gear. My question was using identically named and described gear from fundamentally similar armies (look, Space Marines!).

Though valid point on having nothing but Stormshields on Deathwing Termies...with, you know, no guns.

Thanks for your responses.

A Full army of 2+/3++Termies with the ability to Mix and match weapons and have Half of them Deep Strike turn 1.

And it is a fair comparison. You want to use the rules from Codex A when playing an army from Codex B. It doesn't matter if it's SM and DA, Eldar and SW or Nids and Skaven, it's the same thing.

**SaintHazard**

Devilsquid wrote:Really?

Having a second shot with a Cyclone missle launcher, a 3+ all purpose invunerable save instead of a 4+ melee save, and a 30pt narcatheium that's only allowed due to a special character is considered cheese?

If you're getting it all at the points cost of the wargear in the Dark Angels codex, then yes, it is. It's also illegal.

Devilsquid wrote:And the Space Wolves using Eldar gear is a ridiculous comparison, because it's not the same gear. My question was using identically named and described gear from fundamentally similar armies (look, Space Marines!).

So codices are interchangable because they appear similar? We're using purely subjective qualifiers now for how codices can be mixed (rather than the entirely objective "they can't be mixed at all ever"?)

In that case, can my Space Marine Librarian have a Psychic Hood with no maximum range, because it looks similar to the one in the Daemonhunters codex? And for free, because the Librarian doesn't pay any points for his hood?

Can Gwar!'s Dire Avengers' weapons counts as poisoned 4+ because they look similar to the splinter rifles in the Dark Eldar codex?

Can my Vanilla Space Marine Dreadnought take two DCCWs for no cost because they look similar to the Furioso Dreadnought? For that matter, can I use the Furioso Dreadnought's rules, but pay the points for a vanilla Dread? They look similar!

Just because it's to your advantage to take wargear from another codex doesn't mean you can justify doing so just because they look similar.

In fact, breaking the rules to your advantage is the very definition of cheating, isn't it?

**Jokorey**

Flipping it around, would you allow me to play my ultramarines terminators with deathwing assault? The fluff for terminator armor is the same after all. Do you mind if my Space Wolf landraider uses the old rules for smoke launchers? Same fluff, but the old ones are better, so might as well grab those, right?

**Gwar!**

Ooh yes I would love to use the DH Psychic hoods please! That isn't cheese is it? Nah, it can't be!

I wonder if you would want to use the SM Psychic hoods as well, which are worse? That's something I always seem to notice. "I want to use the SM Storm Shields and stuff but want to keep my Psychic Hood."

**SaintHazard**

Jokorey wrote:Flipping it around, would you allow me to play my ultramarines terminators with deathwing assault? The fluff for terminator armor is the same after all. Do you mind if my Space Wolf landraider uses the old rules for smoke launchers? Same fluff, but the old ones are better, so might as well grab those, right?

Exactly. I want all my vanilla Rhinos to have Black Templar smoke launchers. That'd be pretty awesome. By OP's logic, we can totally do that.

And my Predators are all armed with Reaper Autocannons.

After all, they look similar!

**Gwar!**

SaintHazard wrote:
Jokorey wrote:Flipping it around, would you allow me to play my ultramarines terminators with deathwing assault? The fluff for terminator armor is the same after all. Do you mind if my Space Wolf landraider uses the old rules for smoke launchers? Same fluff, but the old ones are better, so might as well grab those, right?

Exactly. I want all my vanilla Rhinos to have Black Templar smoke launchers. That'd be pretty awesome. By OP's logic, we can totally do that.

And my Predators are all armed with Reaper Autocannons.

After all, they look similar!

How about my Land Raider Crusaders having the DH Hurricane Bolters? The ones that can always fire, even at 12"!

Ok, now, lets all calm down people. We've made our point, don't drag it through the mud and pigpoo.

@Devilsquid: Can you see now why you can't do it? It's a slippery slope that has no end!

**SaintHazard**

OP, the bottom line is that half of the codices are Space Marines of one flavor or another. They all look similar. That doesn't give you leave to swap their wargear about willy-nilly.

**Vrakk**

Well, since the Eldar and Dark Eldar codexes are similar I would like to take a Wraitlord with FNP for $1000 please, Alex. Or furious charge and FNP banshees (how do you like those apples?)

I mean, they are fundamentaly similar armies.

**Zarynterk**

My buddy plays DA and has had this issue as well... for a friendly game I say yes because I play BA and allow him to use the SS for the +3, but in a tournament obviously no go, your dex is your dex plain and simple.

**Iur_tae_mont**

SaintHazard wrote:
Devilsquid wrote:Really?

Having a second shot with a Cyclone missle launcher, a 3+ all purpose invunerable save instead of a 4+ melee save, and a 30pt narcatheium that's only allowed due to a special character is considered cheese?

If you're getting it all at the points cost of the wargear in the Dark Angels codex, then yes, it is. It's also illegal.

Devilsquid wrote:And the Space Wolves using Eldar gear is a ridiculous comparison, because it's not the same gear. My question was using identically named and described gear from fundamentally similar armies (look, Space Marines!).

So codices are interchangable because they appear similar? We're using purely subjective qualifiers now for how codices can be mixed (rather than the entirely objective "they can't be mixed at all ever"?)

In that case, can my Space Marine Librarian have a Psychic Hood with no maximum range, because it looks similar to the one in the Daemonhunters codex? And for free, because the Librarian doesn't pay any points for his hood?

Can Gwar!'s Dire Avengers' weapons counts as poisoned 4+ because they look similar to the splinter rifles in the Dark Eldar codex?

Can my Vanilla Space Marine Dreadnought take two DCCWs for no cost because they look similar to the Furioso Dreadnought? For that matter, can I use the Furioso Dreadnought's rules, but pay the points for a vanilla Dread? They look similar!

Just because it's to your advantage to take wargear from another codex doesn't mean you can justify doing so just because they look similar.

In fact, breaking the rules to your advantage is the very definition of cheating, isn't it?

Don't forget Imperial Plasma gun on a Tau Crisis Suit.

**BearersOfSalvation**

Devilsquid wrote: The SM codex versions of these items are far superior,

Having a second shot with a Cyclone missle launcher, a 3+ all purpose invunerable save instead of a 4+ melee save, and a 30pt narcatheium that's only allowed due to a special character is considered cheese? Huh.

Using rules in Codex A most of the time, but switching to codex B when those items are 'far superior' is pretty much a textbook example of cheese. Yes, I'd like to combine BA assault squads, SW grey hunters and long fangs with vanilla sternguard, terminators, and relic blades, backed with vindicators packing BT power of the machine spirit, and all vehicles covered by DA smoke launchers. What do you mean that it's cheese for me to pick and choose 'far superior' things from a similar codex?

Play using one codex, trying to grab improved rules for some things is not reasonable.

**JGrand**

How bout being nice to the guy? I don't think it's a horribly unreasonable request. Dark Angels (especially Deathwing lists) pay 15 more points a squad for Deathwing assault (good but not amazing), fearless (bad), and mixed weapon squads (ok at best). I wouldn't be opposed to letting someone use 3++ storm shields, updated cyclones (if they pay the 30 instead of the 20), updated PotMS, and updated apothecaries. Provided they lose the old smoke launchers for the new ones and don't get to cherry pick which ones of these they want. Granted, I would never expect anyone to have to do this and when I was playing Deathwing I never pushed for this stuff.

Bottom line: you play Deathwing for a challenge. IF they were made today they probably would have all these goodies and more and be pretty amazing. As it stands you are at a disadvantage going into every game. So use your old apothecaries and smoke launchers well because you miss out on plenty of good stuff for them.

**Homer S**

RAW: no. Ditto for Tourneys

RAI: no, but...

In one of the FAQs, can't recall if it is DA or SM, it says you can try using the new stuff with opponent's approval. For a fun game, you can try it. Remember two things: pay the higher cost and take the bad with the good.

Homer

**Devilsquid**

Whew, good thing I was wearing my fire proof underroos...quite the passionate posters here.

Two things: I ask about using identically named wargear that have been 'upgraded' in a latter edition. If your army had ACCESS to Furioso dreadnauts with different options than the Blood Angel Dreads, then yes, I could see your point.

If Dark Eldar had a "Wraithlord" entry, then sure, we could compare notes.

I bring up the Cyclone Missle Launcher, the Storm Shield, and the Narcatheium because they are IDENTICALY named wargear with identical descriptions.

And no, your terminators can not half and half deepstrike, because they're not Deathwing Terminators. If you had Deathwing Terminators who couldn't deepstrike, then I'd sympathize with you.

Yes, I agree with the Psychic hood, and would not be opposed to using the SM codex hood instead of the DA hood. In for a pinch, in for a pound.

So, before people once again leap upon their Tactical Dreadnaut Soapboxes, understand what I'm asking. I'm not looking for Legion of the Damned in Eldar, I don't want Star Cannons on Dreadnauts, nor am I asking about having Stormguard Options with my Blood Angle Assault Marines. Capisce?

Ah, I found the DA FAQ which is why I asked in the first place:

Q. There are a number of cases where things
with the same name have different rules or
characteristics in Codex Space Marines and
Codex: Dark Angels, such as the different
transport capacity for the Land Raider. There are
also a number of new items of equipment in the
Space Marines Codex that are not this one.
Which version of the rules should I use, the latest
version, or the one in Codex: Dark Angels?
A. Strictly, you should always use the rules from
your own Codex, and this is the default solution
you must use if you and your opponent can’t
come up with a better one (you’ll find that this
might be the case in tournaments, for example!).
However, always keep in mind the foreword we
have written to all of the Errata and FAQ
documents, as well as ‘The Most Important Rule’
described on page 2 of the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook, which states ‘… it is important to
remember that the rules are just a framework to
create an enjoyable game.

As you can see, the nature of the Most Important
Rule means that it’s impossible to give a black
and white answer to any question that may arise;
instead you and your opponent need to discuss
things and come up with the answer that makes both of you the happiest, keeping in mind that
having a good time is more important than
gaining a small in-game advantage. If for any
reason you can’t do this, then simply revert to the
default of using the rules from your own Codex.

Wow, really? "Sure, work it out and do it, unless you can't work it out, then don't do it."

*laugh*

Thanks again for your responses.

**Magnalon**

It's no wonder people flee Dakka like the plague sometimes: the guy asks one question, wants clarification, then gets reamed with 5+ needlessly embelished posts in a row. Gwar answered his question suffiiciently in one simple post: the rest just wasn't needed.

To answer your question: no, that wouldn't fly in just about any game outside of your household. You have to pick one codex and stay with it. Don't think of Dark Angels as "part" of the Marines codex. They're their own seperate thing. It's hard to cope with that due to the fact that they're all technically Marines, but they are very different.

But if you like the Marines codex there's nothing stopping you from just "counts as"-ing your Dark Angels as a Marines chapter, if you want a more competitive 'dex

**DarknessEternal**

I've let folks play DA with Space Marine gear replacements, specifically because of that DA FAQ/Eratta. Without fail, after half a dozen battles, they stopped playing DA and just started using the main Space Marine rules.

DA doesn't need to be an army of its own. Just play Space Marines painted green (or black or white).

Pedro Kantor and Lysander are virtually Dark Angels. Bike captains have all the Ravenwing you'd need.

They only thing they can't do is Terminator Troops, for that, you'd have to go Space Wolves. Just do that when you want to get your Deathwing on.

**Hallowed_Da'Credo**

Magnalon wrote: You have to pick one codex and stay with it. Don't think of Dark Angels as "part" of the Marines codex. They're their own seperate thing. It's hard to cope with that due to the fact that they're all technically Marines, but they are very different.

It's best to not even think of any of the chapters as "marines" even. It's highly possible that the ruling council of terra just said "The ultramarines are more important, so give them all the new equipment. Dark angels get the hand-me-downs." Fair? Debatable. Personally I play both Vanilla and DA, and would I like upgraded equipment? Yes. But if I wanted to use them, I'd just play sm; as gwar! said each codex is well balanced on its own.
I've actually won more battles as my DA with old gear than my sm with the new stuff.

**Grakmar**

Hallowed_Da'Credo wrote:"The ultramarines are more important, so give them all the new equipment. Dark angels get the hand-me-downs."

That's not very Grimdark! I'd say it's more "The Ultramarines are more important, so give them all the old equipment that works great. Dark Angels get the new stuff that we can't make as good."

**Dracos**

Devilsquid wrote:Whew, good thing I was wearing my fire proof underroos...quite the passionate posters here.

Two things: I ask about using identically named wargear that have been 'upgraded' in a latter edition. If your army had ACCESS to Furioso dreadnauts with different options than the Blood Angel Dreads, then yes, I could see your point.

If Dark Eldar had a "Wraithlord" entry, then sure, we could compare notes.

I bring up the Cyclone Missle Launcher, the Storm Shield, and the Narcatheium because they are IDENTICALY named wargear with identical descriptions.

And no, your terminators can not half and half deepstrike, because they're not Deathwing Terminators. If you had Deathwing Terminators who couldn't deepstrike, then I'd sympathize with you.

Yes, I agree with the Psychic hood, and would not be opposed to using the SM codex hood instead of the DA hood. In for a pinch, in for a pound.

So, before people once again leap upon their Tactical Dreadnaut Soapboxes, understand what I'm asking. I'm not looking for Legion of the Damned in Eldar, I don't want Star Cannons on Dreadnauts, nor am I asking about having Stormguard Options with my Blood Angle Assault Marines. Capisce?

Ah, I found the DA FAQ which is why I asked in the first place:

Q. There are a number of cases where things
with the same name have different rules or
characteristics in Codex Space Marines and
Codex: Dark Angels, such as the different
transport capacity for the Land Raider. There are
also a number of new items of equipment in the
Space Marines Codex that are not this one.
Which version of the rules should I use, the latest
version, or the one in Codex: Dark Angels?
A. Strictly, you should always use the rules from
your own Codex, and this is the default solution
you must use if you and your opponent can’t
come up with a better one (you’ll find that this
might be the case in tournaments, for example!).
However, always keep in mind the foreword we
have written to all of the Errata and FAQ
documents, as well as ‘The Most Important Rule’
described on page 2 of the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook, which states ‘… it is important to
remember that the rules are just a framework to
create an enjoyable game.

As you can see, the nature of the Most Important
Rule means that it’s impossible to give a black
and white answer to any question that may arise;
instead you and your opponent need to discuss
things and come up with the answer that makes both of you the happiest, keeping in mind that
having a good time is more important than
gaining a small in-game advantage. If for any
reason you can’t do this, then simply revert to the
default of using the rules from your own Codex.

Wow, really? "Sure, work it out and do it, unless you can't work it out, then don't do it."

*laugh*

Thanks again for your responses.

I'd allow you to do it. The catch is, you have to use all the rules in the C:SM for identically named wargear. Hoods, apothecary gear thing, etc. If I was running a tourny, I'd even rule it that it was up to the Dark angel player - as long as he played consistently and put the fact that he was using updated wargear rules in C:SM (and brought both codices). The GW FAQ makes it pretty clear that they think its reasonable, and I agree with them. So long as your being consistent, its a non-issue.

**Gwar!**

So would you let my Space Wolves use the Dark Angels smoke launchers? I mean, it's only fair right?

**JGrand**

So would you let my Space Wolves use the Dark Angels smoke launchers? I mean, it's only fair right?

I stated I'd have no problem going against a slightly update Dark Angels force if they took a unilateral update. I played Deathwing and had some of my friends trying to get me to use the updated storm shields and such because they thought it made sense. Personally, I didn't care too much and never pushed the subject. I played Deathwing for a challenge. I quit them because they were horribly boring to play as or against.

But you are correct in that it leads to a slippery slope. At the end of the day if your group wants to allow it when whatever.

**Chongara**

If it's not a tournament, why not?

I'd be more than happy to give it a shot if someone asked me. I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone for seeing how things played with the updated rules.

Then again I wouldn't begrudge someone for making up their own custom units for use in games against me.

So you know, I'm a bit crazy perhaps.

**insaniak**

Gwar! wrote:Ok, now, lets all calm down people. We've made our point, don't drag it through the mud and pigpoo.

Bit late, really.