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There are two little questions I would like to ask Dakka about everyone's favourite army: the Necrons

Firstly: I played a huge game a few weeks ago with about 5 players on each side (Imperium vs Aliens) and a Necron player brought along around 40 warriors, a monolith and a destroyer lord. In turn two he deeps strikes his monolith in and it disgorges a unit of 20 warriors. At this point the warriors were the only unit with Necron rule on the table (he still had more in reserve, at least 20). However, an Imperial Guard leafblower then wheels his shadowsword (or some other baneblade variant) around and pie plates the lot of them. He then says that the Necrons must phase out because they have less than 25% required. The shop owner at my flgs (which was where we had the battle) allowed the Necron player to continue. Was he right?

And also: I'm pretty sure of the answer to this one, I was playing a two on two game against Tau and Necrons and I wrecked the necron players monolith jst outside of an objective. The terrain meant that it would be very hard to get to the objective past the downed monolith. The other team went away and had a talk, and came back and took the monolith off the field, claiming that when you destroy a monolith it phases out. They went on to get their troops through the terrain the monolith was blocking, nab the objective and score a draw . Can they do this?

Thank for your time Dakkaites!

The models on the table do not represent the models in the army just because some are in reserve.

If the Necrons are allowed to enter from the table edge then they are still a part of the army and may enter when allowed. _If_ the only way they could have entered was via Monolith port, then whether or not you phase out is irrelevant. If they can't enter play, you can't use them. You haven't 'phased out' but you can't really do anything.

The example of the monolith 'phasing' essentially breaks the rules and was definitely a house rule. You may move over wrecked vehicles but they count as dangerous and difficult terrain. Wobbly Model Syndrome comes into effect when scaling something like a wrecked monolith, but if it's impossible for anything to get within 3" of the objective it's fair to say that the objective cannot possibly be captured or contested.

1.Those other 20 warriors were STILL in reserve. While the game continues, they are still part of his force and if they keep him above 25%, then no phase out is done.

Phase out is calculated on TOTAL points percentage, not necessarily ON-TABLE points. It's also calculated AFTER WBB rolls are made, in the start of HIS turn.

2. House rule. In a tournament, if the Monolith was WRECKED, not DESTROYED, then the WRECK stays where it is and becomes a dangerous/difficult terrain piece. If this means that due to terrain effects AND the wreck that no-one else can get to the objective, then tough. Shouldn't have killed it so close to it.

Thanks for the clarification.

Actually i think this is wrong not because of the phase out (which was played correctly) but becuse you need two units of warriors before any can come out the monolith (also did it deep strike and same turn did they get out or was it the next turn?)

If the necron player had two units of 20 then both would have to enter play from the board edge. This is because only warriors in excess of the min need by the FOC can arrive that way. Though he could have had two units of 10 that seems unlikely.

He had two units of twenty

If all he had was the two units of 20, then he was not allowed to place them in Necron reserve. They may have been placed in standard reserve. If they were placed in Necron reserve, and that was his only monolith, then yes, he phased out after WBB on his turn. If his warriors, that were in reserve, were in standard reserve and not Necron reserve, then no he did not phase out they would have walked in on table edge. (again if he only had two squads of 20 neither should have been in Necron reserve)

Tri wrote:Actually i think this is wrong not because of the phase out (which was played correctly) but becuse you need two units of warriors before any can come out the monolith (also did it deep strike and same turn did they get out or was it the next turn?)

If the necron player had two units of 20 then both would have to enter play from the board edge. This is because only warriors in excess of the min need by the FOC can arrive that way. Though he could have had two units of 10 that seems unlikely.

From the latest Necron FAQ:

Q. Can units of Necron Warriors enter from
reserve as normal or must they enter via a
Monolith?
A. If the players hold any units of Necron
Warriors in reserve, he must specify if they are
going to enter the game through the Monolith or
simply walk in from their own table edge, as
normal. If units of Warriors are using this rule
and all available Monoliths are destroyed, the
Warriors count as destroyed and may therefore
trigger the Phase Out of the on-table portion of
the army.

Ok, this is a little confusing. There's a few important details left out by your original post. (For ease of math, I'm assuming the 2 squads of 20 warriors each are the only models with "Necron" special rule)

1) Was the 2nd Warrior squad declared as entering via monolith or regular reserves?
2) If it was entering via Monolith, did that pie plate kill the Monolith, or just the 1st Warrior squad?

Basically, he needs to be reduced to 10 warriors left alive (based on total number of Necrons, not 5 based on number on board). If the 2nd squad was declared as entering via the monolith and the monolith is killed, the 2nd warrior squad is immediately destroyed. So, if that pie plate killed the monolith and 10 or more warriors from the squad on board, then he would phase out. If the Monolith wasn't destroyed, or more than 10 warriors still live from the 1st squad, he wouldn't phase out. If the 2nd squad of warriors was declared as entering via regular reserve rules, then nothing he did at this point could cause a phase out.


As for your 2nd point, no, the wrecked monolith stays there forever. They totally cheated you.


Also, in multiplayer games, I'd personally recommend having a house rule that removes Phase Out. It's simply too easy to phase out a Necron player by being concentrated on, then his ally is facing a 2vs1 situation and is really in trouble. But, this is just my personal suggested house rule, nothing more.

I'm starting necrons soon myself!

Ok I say this again ... Warriors can be placed in reserve and will walk on from the board edge. The monolith lets you place any unit above the minimum need by the FOC into reserve and then enter play via the monolith.

During deployment you must note whether the warriors will be in reserve, or the monoliths reserve. If they are in the monolith reserve then you can phase out if the monolith is destroyed.

BUT there must be least two units of warriors that are not being deployed via the portal before ANY unit can be place in the monoliths reserve. They may still be placed in reserve but must enter from their table edge

necron codex wrote:Troop-Warriors-Reserves
Any warrior units in excess of the minimum required by the force oranisation chart for the mission being played may begin the game in reserves whether the reserve rule is in use or not. When they arrive the msut emerge from a monolith portal. If there is no monolith when the unit becomes availble, they will be forced to wait until a monolith becomes available.

The FAQ just states they can be placed in ether reserve but you must state which, it does not over rule that you can only do it for warriors over the minimum required by the FOC.

Shenra wrote:I'm starting necrons soon myself!

This is a useful comment!

Let's try and stick to the topic.



Thanks.

If we venture off-topic, we are rewarded with pictures of hot asian chicks?

That's not very good motivation to stay on topic.




...sorry. I'm done now.

Tri wrote:Ok I say this again ... Warriors can be placed in reserve and will walk on from the board edge. The monolith lets you place any unit above the minimum need by the FOC into reserve and then enter play via the monolith.

During deployment you must note whether the warriors will be in reserve, or the monoliths reserve. If they are in the monolith reserve then you can phase out if the monolith is destroyed.

BUT there must be least two units of warriors that are not being deployed via the portal before ANY unit can be place in the monoliths reserve. They may still be placed in reserve but must enter from their table edge

necron codex wrote:Troop-Warriors-Reserves
Any warrior units in excess of the minimum required by the force oranisation chart for the mission being played may begin the game in reserves whether the reserve rule is in use or not. When they arrive the msut emerge from a monolith portal. If there is no monolith when the unit becomes availble, they will be forced to wait until a monolith becomes available.

The FAQ just states they can be placed in ether reserve but you must state which, it does not over rule that you can only do it for warriors over the minimum required by the FOC.

time wizard wrote:

Tri wrote:Actually i think this is wrong not because of the phase out (which was played correctly) but becuse you need two units of warriors before any can come out the monolith (also did it deep strike and same turn did they get out or was it the next turn?)

If the necron player had two units of 20 then both would have to enter play from the board edge. This is because only warriors in excess of the min need by the FOC can arrive that way. Though he could have had two units of 10 that seems unlikely.

From the latest Necron FAQ:

Q. Can units of Necron Warriors enter from
reserve as normal or must they enter via a
Monolith?
A. If the players hold any units of Necron
Warriors in reserve, he must specify if they are
going to enter the game through the Monolith or
simply walk in from their own table edge, as
normal. If units of Warriors are using this rule
and all available Monoliths are destroyed, the
Warriors count as destroyed and may therefore
trigger the Phase Out of the on-table portion of
the army.

Tri - Read the FAQ again. The codex is incorrect in this case, unless you or your friends/FLGS don't use FAQ's either. Anyway, it is now legit for any amount of warriors to be in reserves. You only need to specify if they are entering through a lith or foot slogging on.

This wording in the Necron codex comes from the fact that in old editions, you HAD to have your required FOC start on board. Reserving everything wasn't an option.

Yep if the player holds any units in reserve he must say which reserve they are using.
But to use the portal they must be in excess of those needed by the FOC.
Nothing in the FAQ changes the original rule that lets them use the portal in the first place.
The FAQ is purely there so people don't and can't flip between the rules as they want.


So to recap for warriors to use portal they need the necron warriors reserve rule. This lets any warriors in excess of the FOC be placed in reserve to emerge from the monolith/s portal. The normal BGB reserve rule lets any necrons (warriors or otherwise) to be placed into reserve, to walk in from the players table edge.

Tri wrote:Yep if the player holds any units in reserve he must say which reserve they are using.
But to use the portal they must be in excess of those need by the FOC.
Nothing in the FAQ changes the orginal rule that lets them use the portal in the first place.
The FAQ is purely there so people don't and can't flip between the rules as they want.

Yes it does, and no you don't. Can't be made any simpler than the wording that is there, any unit held in reserve can come in from the board or the monolith. The restriction listed under the warrior reserves rule has been lifted due to the change in reserves with 5th edition.

Q. Can units of Necron Warriors enter from
reserve as normal or must they enter via a
Monolith?
A. If the players hold any units of Necron
Warriors in reserve, he must specify if they are
going to enter the game through the Monolith or
simply walk in from their own table edge, as
normal. If units of Warriors are using this rule
and all available Monoliths are destroyed, the
Warriors count as destroyed and may therefore
trigger the Phase Out of the on-table portion of
the army.

If units of Warriors are using this rule ... What rule? oh the rule that state that only models in excess of those need by the FOC can use them... you're right can't be any clearer

Tri wrote:

Q. Can units of Necron Warriors enter from
reserve as normal or must they enter via a
Monolith?
A. If the players hold any units of Necron
Warriors in reserve, he must specify if they are
going to enter the game through the Monolith or
simply walk in from their own table edge, as
normal. If units of Warriors are using this rule
and all available Monoliths are destroyed, the
Warriors count as destroyed and may therefore
trigger the Phase Out of the on-table portion of
the army.

If units of Warriors are using this rule ... What rule? oh the rule that state that only models in excess of those need by the FOC can use them... your right can't be any clearer

You're.

But you know what, after looking very closely at it and everything, you're right, it doesn't actually say you can do that. You just don't HAVE to bring them in from the monolith but you do still have to adhere to the limitations in the codex (for now). Well that's crap.

Look on the bright side when they finally redo necrons they'll be T5 with FnP 3+/5++ and two wounds ... and their guns will have rending.

Mind you, you won't want to play with them as every one and their dog will be playing with them till the next big thing comes along.

Well, hopefully they won't be that stupidly OP. And personally I hope they don't just throw out the FNP bone to the army....I'm one of the few that doesn't want FNP but a re-worked WBB that is not FNP. Or, basically FNP but with no AP bypass.

Tri wrote:

Q. Can units of Necron Warriors enter from
reserve as normal or must they enter via a
Monolith?
A. If the players hold any units of Necron
Warriors in reserve, he must specify if they are
going to enter the game through the Monolith or
simply walk in from their own table edge, as
normal. If units of Warriors are using this rule
and all available Monoliths are destroyed, the
Warriors count as destroyed and may therefore
trigger the Phase Out of the on-table portion of
the army.

If units of Warriors are using this rule ... What rule? oh the rule that state that only models in excess of those need by the FOC can use them... you're right can't be any clearer

Yes, the rule for warriors in the Necron Codex states; "Any Warrior units in excess of the minimum required by the Force Organization chart for the mission being played may begin the game in reserve..."

From the BRB page 94 under "Mission Special Rules"; The 'reserves' and 'deep strike' special rules given here are used in all standard missions."

And from the same page of the BRB under "Preparing Reserves"; "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

So in all standard missions, you can choose to place your entire army in reserve. This is according to the BRB.

So the minimum number of troops selections required by the FOC for all standar missions is zero, '0', nada, none.
That is why you can begin a mission with both (or all for that matter) Necron Warrior units in reserve. Your only requirement is the same as that for any other army, you must specify how they will arrive on the battlefield.

So when you place them in reserve, you state whether they will arrive from the board edge or via the Monolith portal. If you have only one Monolith, and it is destroyed, and you had 1 or more Warrior units in reserve that were selected to arrive through the portal, then those units would be destroyed since there was no longer a Monolith portal to arrive through.

Min required by the FOC is one HQ and Two Troop. Its the same as it was in 4th ... its just in the 4th you could not choose to place any in reserve. Now you can choose to place all models in reserve but the necrons monolith reserve rule does not let you take every one through it only those in excess of the FOC.

So feel free to put all your warriors into reserves but at least 2 must walk on from the table edge or deploy normally

There are three separate rules at play here.

The Warrior's Reserve rule allows you to keep any units of Warriors in excess of the base 2 in Reserve, and states that these Reserve units must enter through the Monolith portal.

The Monolith allows (actually forces) any Warrior unit in Reserve to enter through its portal.

The FAQ upgrades the Reserve rule to 5th edition, because you can now keep whoever you want in Reserve, by stating that you just have to declare whether your Warriors are entering normally or through the Monolith.


So it's not just the excess squads that can use the Monolith. When the codex was written, the excess Warriors (if kept in Reserve) had to use it, and the fact that the Monolith could technically bring through any Reserve units was largely irrelevant, since there was no way for other units to be in Reserve in the first place.

By the current rules, you choose which units go in Reserve, and you declare which of them are walking, and which of them are coming in through the Monolith. The Monolith can teleport any Warrior unit in reserve as before, with the sole change being that you have to have declared that the unit you are 'porting is coming through the Monolith.

insaniak wrote:There are three separate rules at play here.

The Warrior's Reserve rule allows you to keep any units of Warriors in excess of the base 2 in Reserve, and states that these Reserve units must enter through the Monolith portal.

The Monolith allows (actually forces) any Warrior unit in Reserve to enter through its portal.

The FAQ upgrades the Reserve rule to 5th edition, because you can now keep whoever you want in Reserve, by stating that you just have to declare whether your Warriors are entering normally or through the Monolith.


So it's not just the excess squads that can use the Monolith. When the codex was written, the excess Warriors (if kept in Reserve) had to use it, and the fact that the Monolith could technically bring through any Reserve units was largely irrelevant, since there was no way for other units to be in Reserve in the first place.

By the current rules, you choose which units go in Reserve, and you declare which of them are walking, and which of them are coming in through the Monolith. The Monolith can teleport any Warrior unit in reserve as before, with the sole change being that you have to have declared that the unit you are 'porting is coming through the Monolith.

You may have miss read ... If they are using the warriors' reserve rule then they must use it, you cannot choose to fire the partical whip insted. It also tells you to see the necron warriors reserve rules.

There are two rules ...
BGB Reserves: any model may be placed in reserves and enter from the players board edge
and
Necrons Warriors Reserves: Any warriors in excess of the min required by the FOC may be placed in reserve when they arrive they MUST arrive from the monolith.

To use the Wariors's reserves rule you need two units of warriors to fill the FOC's min requirement, these 2 units may not use the rule as per the rule. They may use the BGB's reserve rule, because that is not limited, however that does not let them arrive via the monolith's portal.

You're partially right, Tri. The FAQ changed it now so that any troop beyond the compulsory amount and placed in reserve has the option to choose to come in from the monolith. No longer is it required. So, the compulsory troops can be placed in reserve but they MUST foot slog onto the board. Any troop choices beyond the compulsory can choose to come in through the lith or foot slog on. As normal though, if one of the teleporting troops becomes available then they must come on even if you want to fire the whip instead.

Man, I had a much better explanation but my work comp locked up on me two letters from the end of my post.

Here's a question...do you HAVE to roll to bring in reserves every turn...or can you leave them in reserves until the games almost over?

Shenra wrote:Here's a question...do you HAVE to roll to bring in reserves every turn...or can you leave them in reserves until the games almost over?

This is covered by the reserves rules themselves.

Check the 'Rolling for Reserves' section. It's not optional... you roll for them in each turn, and have to bring them on when they become available.