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So, taking WS to represent skill at arms, both offensive at defensive, and not simply having lots of attacks or strength and overwhelming people, nor aborbing blows due to Toughness, let's examine the inconsistencies between the codices I own and what other info I have. Let's then wonder why GW do not have this standardised in-house and why the codex writers do not refer to this standardisation.

If I think something should have a higher WS, I mark it in green. If I think it should stay the same, amber, and if I think lower, in red.


WS10 - (Literal) Gods of War - Bloodthirster, Avatar of Khaine - As it should be, the only two things I know of that have WS10. These two should be able to outfight anyone with comparable equipment.

WS9 - Random explanationless things - Lelith Hesperax (or so I read somewhere) - How can this be? Okay, she is a badass, but justify being better than any of the Phoenix Lords by two points?! Maybe I am wrong about the WS9? Okay, she has been around a while, but so have the Phoenix Lords. I'd drop her to the same as the Phoenix Lords.

WS8 - Supernatural Beings - The Sanguinor, Summoned Greater Daemons, Keepers of Secrets - Well, the Sanguinor is a bit naff, but on the basis he is a supernatural being, and is also possibly Sanguinnius reinacarnated, once you accept he exists, his WS is at least reasonable. Seeing as there should not currently be anything at WS9, I'd move anything "Supernatural" up to WS9. After all, in a fight, WS10 vs WS9 offers the exact same odds as WS10 vs. WS8 anyway.

WS7 - Immortal Warriors - The Phoenix Lords, Chaos Daemon Princes, Mephiston, Captain Corien Sumatris (IA9) - Well, having been acquiring fighting experience for 10 millenia, you'd expect the Phoenix Lords would be good in a fight. I'd argue that they, and other "Immortal Warriors" should be WS8 once the Supernatural Beings on WS8 move up to the (ought to be) unoccupied WS9. Daemon Princes, as Immortal Warriors should equal the Phoenix Lords, whatever WS they get. Now, I'd have to query why Mephiston went into his little reverie and came out as the most skilled mortal ever. More attacks, initiative, strength, sure, but how did he acquire greater skill whilst entombed? He went up 2 WS from a regular Librarian, surpassing any Chapter Master, even his own, the long-lived Dante. Bah, I say. Bah. Feature creep. Captain Corien from the Badab War book also bugs me. People resist the temptation to give any Marines WS7, then along comes IA9 and ruins it. I'd rather see improved Initiative, attacks, something like that. Maybe if Daemon Princes and Phoenix Lords were bumped up to WS8, I'd be happy for them to stay at this level. (Incidentally, I'd see Primarchs as having WS ranging from 8 down to 6, but WS7 for most. Maybe even WS9 for one or two of them)

WS6 - Best of the Best - Marine Chapter Masters, Captains, Autarchs, Archons, Broodlords and Genestealers, The Nightbringer, Ghazghkull, the mightiest Ork ever, Great Unclean Ones, Heralds of Khorne, Furioso Dreadnoughts. All seems reasonable. If you had WS7 available for truly exceptional marines, Eldar, etc, you have this level available for all Chapter Masters, Captains, etc... Ghaz is based on overwhelming orneriness, not skill, so that seems okay. I do not know enough about the Nightbringer to know if this seems a little low. I guess he never needed to learn how to wield a weapon in hand-to-hand combat though? No quite sure if regular 'stealers ought to maybe be WS5, but they are meant to be badass, so I can live with it. I don't think Furioso Dreads should be WS6. If being entombed in a metal bawks doesn't impair your skillzors, what does?

WS5 - The Rest of the Best and The Best of the Rest - Ork Warbosses, Librarians, Chaplains, Harlequins, Exarchs, Imperial Assassins, Grey Knights, The Deceiver, Lord of Change, Bloodletters. Makes sense. One better than the basic standard for their types, for Librarians and Chaplains. Harlequins are even better than the Aspect Warriors, as are Exarchs, but that seems okay to me.

WS4 - The Elites and Natural Warriors - Marines, Aspect Warriors, Kabalite Warriors, Ork Boyz and Nobz, Ogryn, Guard Officers, Hormagaunts, Kroot, Necrons - If you look at intense training or a warrior lifestyle, you get to here. I'd suggest Ogryn should be WS3, as I see them as being clumsy and relying on brute force, but I guess they are regarded as doing so much HtH combat that they acquire some amount of skill. I reckon regular Necrons could do with something to differentiate them from Marines, and WS3 would achieve that. Nobz get bigger and stronger, not more skilled, so I can live with no WS increase.

WS3 - Trained Soldiers and the Naturally Skilled - Guardsmen, Guardians, Servitors, Plaguebearers, Gaunts, Carnifexes, Gargoyles, Tau Leaders - Those who belong on a battlefield, but probably ought to be avoiding getting up close.

WS2 - Get off the battlefield!! - Conscripts/Auxilia, Grots, Nurglings, Pink Horrors, Tau, Scarabs - Utterly outclasses by everything they can encounter, as they should be.

WS1 - Nothing? - I can find nothing that has WS1. What a waste. Still, it allows for household pets to be introduced to your games.

WS0 - Non-respeonsive - Spore Mines.

Wow, not as much moved as I expected, but I have typed it now, so I may as well post it. What about those codices I do not own? Where do other things fit in? How inconsistent are they? I think the seeming non-use of WS9 and actual non-use of WS1 compress things in the middle a tiny bit too much, and makes anything that does move outside of those bounds seem a bit surprising.

The Swarmlord has WS9 and it seems to be rather appropriate.

Completly agree with almost all of this. But Ogryn should be WS4.

The Swarmlord is something Tyranidy, I assume?

Fifty wrote:The Swarmlord is something Tyranidy, I assume?

...you're rating the appropriateness of the WS characteristic across all codices... and you don't know who the Swarmlord is?



...huh.

The avater is an abosulte soul-eater for units with weak toughness (guard,other eldar,etc.etc.)

I'd bump Swarmlord down to WS8 and Nightbringer up at least that high . . . he is like a necron daemon prince after all

Kharn the Betrayer? Where does he stand? I mean, he's more than 10000 years old, and hits everything in the game (Bloodthirsters included!!) on a 2+. I'd say he's supposed to be more martially skilled than even supernatural beings. Say, WS9.

I'd have to say the Ws8 ones are good where they are. The weaponskill is a good representation of the average supernatural being, considerably higher than even elite trained units, but still a good bit lower than the incarnation of the gods of war. Slaaneshi daemons emphasis speed and that's perfectly represented in their statistics, and Ws8 means that any elite-trained units can conceivably do well against them, but not extremely well. Generic GDs are less skilled in combat than their god-dedicated counterparts (what if, say, the GD happens to be from a god that's good at range?) so it also suits them.

For Ws7, it's also a good place for them (except for the guy from IA9). Phoneix Lords might get a different profile change when Eldar get updated, since they use a generic profile line for all of the Phoneix Lords (which seems rather odd where the ranged phoneix lord is just as proficient in close combat as the close combat phoenix lord). Not saying there should be a drastic difference, but there should be a difference to them in general. As a generic representation, however, it's a good one. Daemon Princes are not ethereal and is directly pointed out to be inferior to true daemons due to their moral origins, but they would still be more proficient than the standard captain. Mephiston is also hinted at having some taint, and may also be partially daemon after his rebirth, so the same reasoning can be given for him as the Daemon Prince.

I agree with purplefood on Ogryns being 4. They're the close combat troops so they'd likely have been Ws3 (equivallent) before being inducted, and got to Ws4 after some basic training. Necrons need to be lowered tho (and perhaps lowered in cost to reflect this since they are quite pricy). With no personality whatsoever to speak of there's no way they'd be as proficient in combat as a trained special forces member, even after all that time.

Ws3 should be the generic "standard" for enlisted humans. they have basic knowledge of parrying and how to properly fight and avoid getting hit. Naturally gifted and born warriors are at 4 since it's a lifestyle for them.

Swarmlord at WS9 is about perfect imo as it makes WS4 (marines) need 5s.

I think Nightbringer should be 9, for the same reason, however.

lunarman wrote:Kharn the Betrayer? Where does he stand? I mean, he's more than 10000 years old, and hits everything in the game (Bloodthirsters included!!) on a 2+. I'd say he's supposed to be more martially skilled than even supernatural beings. Say, WS9.

Kharn hits on a 2+ because of a magic weapon, not because of his martial skill.

He fights well for a Marine, but he can't defend himself any better than that either, hence WS 5.

DarknessEternal wrote:

He fights well for a Marine, but he can't defend himself any better than that either, hence WS 5.

Kharn is WS 7.

I agree, Nightbringer's WS should be proportionately higher since he is considered a manifested god, so he should be around a 8 (AT LEAST).

Lord Zhufor is also WS7 (IA7)

You seem to assume WS is a skill in vacuum. It isnt, like most of the skills it works in partnership with other skills. init isnt simply how fast you are, but can also be a measure of martial prowess or simply how easy you are to hit - hence Orks, which arent slow in the fluff, are slower than a human if you look at their init value alone.

SaintHazard wrote:

Fifty wrote:The Swarmlord is something Tyranidy, I assume?

...you're rating the appropriateness of the WS characteristic across all codices... and you don't know who the Swarmlord is?

No. Like I said in my original post, I was comparing WS across the codices I own. I then asked people for input on those I do not own. Having not played a battle against Tyranids since 1993, I am not really up to date about them. Sorry, I'll quit my job and go hang out in a GW store every day. Until then, I'll try to refrain from entering any discussions. Is that okay, huh?

nosferatu1001 wrote:You seem to assume WS is a skill in vacuum. It isnt, like most of the skills it works in partnership with other skills. init isnt simply how fast you are, but can also be a measure of martial prowess or simply how easy you are to hit - hence Orks, which arent slow in the fluff, are slower than a human if you look at their init value alone.

No, I am not assuming that at all. It feeds directly into some of what I have stated. And you are right, Init is not how fast you are, it is how good you are at landing the first blow. WS is how good you are are at doing something, Init is how quick you are at doing that thing. So you could argue it is an element of martial prowess, but not an element of martial skill, imo. Anyway, like you say, things other than WS need to be taken into account when considering overall fighting ability, but they can be considered separately for many things. Init decides whether you attack or defend first. WS decides how well you attack or defend. For this reason, Init is probably more important if you have a lower WS than your opponent, as you are unlikely to get to hit them at all if you are both slower and less skilled, as you'll be dead already. You'd better have either a massive Str vs T advantage, or some awesome armour if you find yourself in this situation, especially if they have lots of attacks. Like you said, everything has to be considered together for the fight as a whole, but not for the skill you show during that fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I'd have to say the Ws8 ones are good where they are. The weaponskill is a good representation of the average supernatural being, considerably higher than even elite trained units, but still a good bit lower than the incarnation of the gods of war. Slaaneshi daemons emphasis speed and that's perfectly represented in their statistics, and Ws8 means that any elite-trained units can conceivably do well against them, but not extremely well. Generic GDs are less skilled in combat than their god-dedicated counterparts (what if, say, the GD happens to be from a god that's good at range?) so it also suits them.

The reason I suggested moving WS8 things to WS9 is that both WS8 and WS9 need 4s to hit WS10, and both will be hit by WS10 on a 3. They are functionally identical when compared to WS10. If WS9 had anything filling up that slot I'd say leave it, but Lelith, IMO does not belong there anyway. The fact that there is nothing that should be there using that WS9 slot means it may as well be filled. There is then space to move some WS7 up to WS8 and spread out some of all of those who are bunched together around WS6.

Btw, it strikes me that Lelith has WS9 because Phil Kelly looked at the Blood Angels Codex and went "Huh? Sanguinnius on WS8? Sod that, I can top that!"

Do you own the DE codex in order to be able to say if Lelith belongs there?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Do you own the DE codex in order to be able to say if Lelith belongs there?

Well, clearly not, seeing as I state "or so I read somewhere", then ask if I am right about the WS9. I'd say that made it fairly obvious that I was open to being informed I was wrong, or that there was a very good reason why she has WS9. The fluff for her on the GW website does not immediately suggest anything that would put her beyond Supernatural Beings and Phoenix Lords, however.

Does everything need a qualifier in this place? Why not actually get involved in the conversation, rather than trying to hamstring it or imply fault? It is not like I was uncivil when I responded to your last post.

Or is this a dig that I do know a teensy bit about Lelith, but not the Swarmlord?

No, simply positing that she should have her weapon skill reduced when you have no idea why it is so high seems a little presumptuous.

Questioning your basis for your argument (Lilith should drop in WS) IS getting involved in the discussion. As in I am asking you HOW You came to your determination, as otherwise it implies it is arbitrary "I dont think she should"rather than "she is only X Y Z so WS9 is too high"

From what I have seen of her background, she is the greatest warrior the Eldar have ever produced, so out there that wytches need drugs to even get close to her abilities. She is a freak of Eldar nature, having bested supernatural beings previously.

You are far, far too precious about threads as well, as your response on the outflank thread showed.

And then there's the anomaly of Celestians, who are WS4 but always hit on a 3+ regardless of WS.

Also, why should summoned greater daemons be better than the ones i nthe Daemons codex?

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, simply positing that she should have her weapon skill reduced when you have no idea why it is so high seems a little presumptuous.

Questioning your basis for your argument (Lilith should drop in WS) IS getting involved in the discussion. As in I am asking you HOW You came to your determination, as otherwise it implies it is arbitrary "I dont think she should"rather than "she is only X Y Z so WS9 is too high"

From what I have seen of her background, she is the greatest warrior the Eldar have ever produced, so out there that wytches need drugs to even get close to her abilities. She is a freak of Eldar nature, having bested supernatural beings previously.

You are far, far too precious about threads as well, as your response on the outflank thread showed.

I believe you have me mixed up with Flinty, who has a similar looking name and a UK flag next to his name, like me. He has a very different avatar, however. I (generally) stay out of YMDC.

Back to Lilith, I don't have much basis to say anything about her, which is why I asked how WS9 can be right, and whether it can be justified. There are plenty of stories of mortals beating up supernaturals, for example, Marneus Calgar beating up an Avatar, without feeling the need to give them WS9. Even if Lilith is better than a Phoenix Lord, the next best from her entire race, an extra TWO points STILL seems excessive to me.

Apologies, flinty fifty name confusion. I tend not to look at avatars as they change, and Gwar!s ones normally disturb me.

The other reason for WS9 is a cool mechanic involving her attacks. In order to balance removal of an agoniser mainly....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Apologies, flinty fifty name confusion. I tend not to look at avatars as they change, and Gwar!s ones normally disturb me.

The other reason for WS9 is a cool mechanic involving her attacks. In order to balance removal of an agoniser mainly....

I think you are dead on with this. While I am personally dismayed at Lellith loosing her agonizer, I find it way fluffier in order to show her prowess. She uses no enhancements to her martial skills. Also, she's close to double her points from the old codex.

What was the Agonizer, and how many points are we talking? I know you can't just tell me, so in comparison to, say, a Phoenix Lord or Pedro Kantor?

The Weapon Skill table needs to be fixed...to resemble toughness vs. strength. For example, twice the strength equals insta-kill. Twice the weapon skill, in my opinion, should be auto hit. There's no way a weapon skill 2 or 3 should be able to parry a weapon skill 9 or 10.

Fifty wrote:What was the Agonizer, and how many points are we talking? I know you can't just tell me, so in comparison to, say, a Phoenix Lord or Pedro Kantor?

The Agonizer was a poisoned power weapon that wounded on 4+. Also Lelith has a rule where she gets bonus attacks when her WS is higher than her opponents. IIRC Lelith's points value jumped to around 200 now.

Snarky wrote:

Fifty wrote:What was the Agonizer, and how many points are we talking? I know you can't just tell me, so in comparison to, say, a Phoenix Lord or Pedro Kantor?

The Agonizer was a poisoned power weapon that wounded on 4+. Also Lelith has a rule where she gets bonus attacks when her WS is higher than her opponents. IIRC Lelith's points value jumped to around 200 now.

Just a Power weapon actually. Still wounded on +4 and glanced any vehicle on a 6.

Yeah, they had poison before it existed in the ruleset - it just always wounded on a 4+.

SHes 170 from memory, which is roughly double despite losing the shadowfield (she does have a 3++ (combat ) / 4++ (all other times) now though...0

Necrons have really bizzare WS values. 4 for a necron lord who has probably millennia of fighting experience? 6 and 5 for the Nightbringer and Deciever? The guy who created the fear of death is only as good as chapter masters?

Normal warriors could be at 3(possibly 2) without being weird, maybe Immortals/destroyers could stay at 4 since they have better memory systems or somesuch.

Necrons are robots. They don't grow and change, even when left out of the Stasis Tombs. They don't learn or adapt.

Shenra wrote:The Weapon Skill table needs to be fixed...to resemble toughness vs. strength. For example, twice the strength equals insta-kill. Twice the weapon skill, in my opinion, should be auto hit. There's no way a weapon skill 2 or 3 should be able to parry a weapon skill 9 or 10.

Sure there is, parry or dodge by sheer luck.

It still hasn't been explained why summoned greater daemons are supposed to be better than the ones in the Chaos Daemons codex. I would think it would be the opposite.