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While driving around doing errands today, I suddenly had a thought. The "Kan Wall" strategy, large blocks of infantry marching up the table being granted cover saves by squadrons of walkers in the front, and supported by long-range firepower from the back, is a popular strategic choice for Orks. It has occurred to me, though, that Imperial Guard have almost all the ingredients necessary to copy this strategy.

~Infantry Blobs are cheap, relatively resilient (with the potential for Stubborn), and can be quite strong in Assault when given Power Weapons and some support characters. Their biggest weakness is the short range and low strength of their standard guns, compared to the Shoota's 18" and S4.
~Armoured Sentinels are actually much tougher than Killa Kans, with AV12, and have a wide variety of weapon options. They won't have a cover save from a KFF, but can be given Smoke Launchers, which can give each squadron of Sentinels some cover for three turns total, by popping smoke one at a time and applying the worst hits to that Sentinel. It's not as good as across-the-board obscurement, but comparable.
~It goes without saying that Guard can field ridiculous amounts of long-range fire support. My tastes would pull me towards Mortar Teams to fulfill the "Grot" role of holding objectives in cover, while indirectly firing over your blobs/walkers, and then sprinkle in Hydras, Manticores, artillery, and Lemans, as needed.

Clearly, all the ingredients of a basic Kan Wall are there in the Guard codex, and the point costs are comparable. In addition, many Kan Wall lists use outflanking Kommandos to force an opponent into the middle of the board; although Guard can't sneak in from the opponent's board edge like Snikrot can, they are the best army in the game at manipulating reserve rolls, and can outflank anything up to and including an entire Infantry Platoon, using characters like Creed and al'Rahem.

It seems to me that Power Blobs, one of the generally effective Guard strategies, could only be helped by the addition of a wall of Sentinels to grant them cover. Does anyone else think this could be an effective, or at least fun, army style?

The Kan wall is really ONLY good because of the KFF. They are cheaper than armored sentinels, always have the 4+ save, and have DCCW to boot. I just do not think that sentinels are worth it in the long run, for this kind of job. The whole list relies on the fast that the KFF gives cover to the Kans who give cover to everyone.

That said if you are dead set on it, here are my suggestions.

1) take power fists in your blob squads
2) Straken? 12" furious charge seems like it might fit in here.
3) no mortars. You infantry is there to grind down other infantry, you need Anti tank. Your army is slow so you need to hit the mobility of the other player first. Auto-Cannon, Missile Launchers for the HWT
4) Meltas in the blob squads. Spread them out to prevent people from tank shocking you away from them.
5) Keep the Sentinels cheap, muti-laser or auto-cannon. They will die and fast. Use any remaining to take side shot at vehicles or to tie up squads without a powerfist that you do not want to fight with your troops.

it sounds cool, i would like to see this vs. an ORK kan wall

Okay, i know it's just my opinion, but for the crazy amount of points that "could" be spent on Sentinels, i'd rather go with a 55 point chimera.
It's bigger, 2 heavy weapons and can even transport the troops, say 12", then jump out. obviously if you blob the squads then you couldn't transport them.
but you could still buy a Chimera for every squad.

Some good points, Svendrex, I hadn't thought about the lack of DCCWs at first. That is a major downside compared to Kans, since the ranks of infantry behind the walkers can't rely on S10 melee to break open enemy vehicles. Hmm... To address your other points:

1) Fists never seem worth it to me, for Guardsmen, since they're only S6. I'd rather save points and hit at initiative; the point is to grind the enemy down over time, anyway.
2) Straken is a given in any CC blob list, definitely!
3) Mortars aren't ideal, but they can shoot over the wall of units I'll be sending up the board, and hide out behind LOS-blocking cover in the process. I'm not a big fan of HWSs for anti-tank, just because the accuracy is so limited.
4) Meltas are a good idea, and I will most likely include them. Also considering Grenade Launchers for their additional range, but they're not really that good otherwise.
5) I am torn between keeping the Sents as cheap as possible, and trying to use them for anti-tank. Lascannons are sooo expensive, but Missile Launchers might work.

Thanks for the critique!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:Okay, i know it's just my opinion, but for the crazy amount of points that "could" be spent on Sentinels, i'd rather go with a 55 point chimera.
It's bigger, 2 heavy weapons and can even transport the troops, say 12", then jump out. obviously if you blob the squads then you couldn't transport them.
but you could still buy a Chimera for every squad.

Yes, I could buy Chimeras for similar points, but then it's just another slightly different Chimera-spam list, which just isn't as cool. I thought it would be more fun to come up with a different way to create the ubiquitous "wall of Front Armour 12" that seems so effective.

Now, I wouldn't be opposed to adding a few units of, say, Vets, or maybe just the PCSs, with special weapons in Chimeras, which might be able to rush forward and kill vehicles earlier on. I just don't want to have nothing but Chimeras because that kills the uniqueness.

alanedomain wrote:Some good points, Svendrex, I hadn't thought about the lack of DCCWs at first. That is a major downside compared to Kans, since the ranks of infantry behind the walkers can't rely on S10 melee to break open enemy vehicles. Hmm... To address your other points:

1) Fists never seem worth it to me, for Guardsmen, since they're only S6. I'd rather save points and hit at initiative; the point is to grind the enemy down over time, anyway.
2) Straken is a given in any CC blob list, definitely!
3) Mortars aren't ideal, but they can shoot over the wall of units I'll be sending up the board, and hide out behind LOS-blocking cover in the process. I'm not a big fan of HWSs for anti-tank, just because the accuracy is so limited.
4) Meltas are a good idea, and I will most likely include them. Also considering Grenade Launchers for their additional range, but they're not really that good otherwise.
5) I am torn between keeping the Sents as cheap as possible, and trying to use them for anti-tank. Lascannons are sooo expensive, but Missile Launchers might work.

Thanks for the critique!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:Okay, i know it's just my opinion, but for the crazy amount of points that "could" be spent on Sentinels, i'd rather go with a 55 point chimera.
It's bigger, 2 heavy weapons and can even transport the troops, say 12", then jump out. obviously if you blob the squads then you couldn't transport them.
but you could still buy a Chimera for every squad.

Yes, I could buy Chimeras for similar points, but then it's just another slightly different Chimera-spam list, which just isn't as cool. I thought it would be more fun to come up with a different way to create the ubiquitous "wall of Front Armour 12" that seems so effective.

Now, I wouldn't be opposed to adding a few units of, say, Vets, or maybe just the PCSs, with special weapons in Chimeras, which might be able to rush forward and kill vehicles earlier on. I just don't want to have nothing but Chimeras because that kills the uniqueness.

1) agreed
2) also agree
3) use you big guns (basilisk, Manticore, etc...) for that. and i second the HWS opinion.
4) Meltas and Meltabombs for the Sgts in the blobs
5) i'd keep them cheap as possible.

i see your point on the Chimeras.

Firstly, kanz are better than sentinels for the reasons stated above.

Secondly, as a horde player myself, I rely on the durability of the blobs themselves to keep me going against enemy firepower. A cover save, while it would be nice, isn't necessary.

Thirdly, and most importantly...

alarmingrick wrote:for the crazy amount of points that "could" be spent on Sentinels, i'd rather go with a 55 point chimera.

/thread

I would love if you could make it work, and if other players would adopt the idea. Actually I would simply like to see a single blob style IG army at my store.

As far as not having ddcw goes, I don't know the imperial guard codex that well but I would assume they could find the anti tank they need elsewere, and anti tank is really what those klaws are for the orks.

Also, something to consider are the alternatives:

Conscripts give you a nice 4+ cover to everything. Given how many bodies there are, you can easily give cover to the entire board if you really want to. Plus, at 80 points, they're WAY cheaper than sentinels, whose points easily run into the hundreds. Yeah, they're not going to do any damage or give cover to vehicles or tie anything up in close combat, but if pure cover saves is what you're looking for, then conscripts will do the job for long enough to get the infantry where you want it.

Ogryn. For the price of 4 sentinels, you get 6 ogryn. Ogryn spread out further than the sentinels while still giving cover to vehicles. They also put out the same amount of damage with shooting, and are beeftank against pretty much anything in close combat, unlike the sentinels. Also, they take up elites slots that you're not using anyways, instead of competing with hellhounds and vendettas for FA slots.

More infantry. You're afraid of losing a blob worth of guys due to enemy fire? Take another blob! This is actually the most cost-effective way of providing cover outside of conscripts, and they can still pack a whallop while being a stubborn scoring unit to boot.

Or, of course, you could just take chimeras. A free heavy weapon and a much larger model to screen more dudes. You don't even need to be riding in them for them to be more useful than sentinels in this case.

Hmmm, Ogryns are an interesting idea, Ailaros, hadn't thought of that. They would provide a good first wave in CC, are tough enough to not get instakilled by heavy weaponry (excluding Vindicators and Railguns), and are cheaper than the Sentinels per model. Plus, they could easily fit my army's theme... I may have to think about that possibility.

Fluffwise at least, I love the idea of massed ogryn cheerfully leading the infantry against their enemies, very original. Maybe play a few games with proxy models to see how effective it is?

Popping smoke launchers one at a time in a 3 vehicle squadron is going to result in three turns without coversaves. Don't forget that squadrons use the normal unit rules to determine if they are overall in cover, and if at least half are not in cover they are all considered exposed and none get the saves. Of course if you use a 2 vehicle squadron you can get two turns by popping one at a time because at least half will be in cover then.

I've never understood the facination with Armoured Sentinels. Besides the fact that Chimeras are superior, they can't outflank. Stick some Scout Sentinels armed with Autocannons in the list, that would provide the outflanking aspect to your idea and keep with the wall tactic you're looking for.

Chrysis wrote:Popping smoke launchers one at a time in a 3 vehicle squadron is going to result in three turns without coversaves. Don't forget that squadrons use the normal unit rules to determine if they are overall in cover, and if at least half are not in cover they are all considered exposed and none get the saves. Of course if you use a 2 vehicle squadron you can get two turns by popping one at a time because at least half will be in cover then.

Ah... I see what you mean. I got the relationship of cover-determination and "wound allocation" mixed up. Thank you for the correction.

Illeix, I don't know why others like Armoured Sentinels, but for me, I just like the way they look, and logically it just seems that if AV12 is a challenge on a Chimera, then it should be on a walker, too. Plus, Sentinels have a much wider variety of weapon options than Chimeras do, and the Armoured variety in particular get Plasma Cannons, which are always cool.

I think what I'll do is include a single unit of not-too-expensive Armoured Sentinels as part of my "Wall," then Ogryns for the rest of it. This seems like a good compromise, since I'll now have some free FA slots to fit in a Vendetta or some Hellhounds or something, and I'll get to model some Ogryns, which I've been wanting to do anyway. In the meantime, the Sents can bring a few heavy weapons to the front of the field.

Another way to use an Imperial "kan" wall would be to use the witchhunters codex and spam Penitent Engines and Platoons.

whitedragon wrote:Another way to use an Imperial "kan" wall would be to use the witchhunters codex and spam Penitent Engines and Platoons.

Hmm... I like the idea, but Penitent Engines have plenty of problems, too. Most obvious is the limited armor (though immunity to Stunned and Shaken is nice), and most importantly, Holy Rage, which makes them susceptible to kiting and/or keeps them moving faster than the troops behind them, which kindof defeats the purpose of trying to use walkers as cover. Plus you have to take a Priest to have any, and Witchhunter Priests are almost useless.

Besides, I'm not made of money, and Penitent Engine models are almost impossible to find, especially in quantity!

I think this sounds like a nice, fluffy way to downpower a guard horde list.

In a pure infantry horde IG list, you have all the punch you need. You have antitank from ACs, lascannons and meltaguns with Bring It Down (plus meltabombs), you have ridiculous HTH punch from platoons full of dudes who won't break (Stubborn on Ld9, almost always re-rollable if you're doing it right) with 20+ power weapon attacks, FC & counter-attack, plus Straken's monstrous creature-equivalent fighting ability. You have scoring units all over the place.

The issues with a "Kan Wall" are a) no dreadnought CCWs; b) no Kustom Force Field, and most importantly c) You are giving your opponent's anti-tank weapons something to do. In a regular IG infantry horde you LAUGH every time your opponent shoots a lascannon. You giggle every time they fire a meltagun. Throwing in any kind of vehicle is watering down one of your strengths.

That said, given how time-consuming and annoying to play the pure infantry horde can be, and how it can be frustratingly dominant for your opponents, I can definitely see the appeal of watering it down by working in some vehicles to make things more fun and interesting for both you and your opponent. I like the idea of making a list using Sentinels for that rather than the obvious Chimeras.

Mannahnin wrote:
The issues with a "Kan Wall" are a) no dreadnought CCWs; b) no Kustom Force Field, and most importantly c) You are giving your opponent's anti-tank weapons something to do. In a regular IG infantry horde you LAUGH every time your opponent shoots a lascannon. You giggle every time they fire a meltagun. Throwing in any kind of vehicle is watering down one of your strengths.

That said, given how time-consuming and annoying to play the pure infantry horde can be, and how it can be frustratingly dominant for your opponents, I can definitely see the appeal of watering it down by working in some vehicles to make things more fun and interesting for both you and your opponent. I like the idea of making a list using Sentinels for that rather than the obvious Chimeras.

This had occurred to me, offering up some vehicle targets in a mostly horde list would seem crazy... like a fox! The way I figure it, I can't subsist entirely off of infantry, since I'm going to need some Hydras, Artillery, etc. for real punch and range; otherwise I have, what, meltaguns to threaten enemy tanks? They're good, but I can't always rely on my enemy kindly driving their vehicles into range for me. If I stick a few Sentinels in front, though, toting Plasma and Autocannons so they look sufficiently threatening, I give an easy target for my opponent, who then won't be shooting at my backfield vehicles in cover where the reliable firepower lies. At least, that's the general plan, anyway.

alanedomain wrote:otherwise I have, what, meltaguns to threaten enemy tanks? They're good, but I can't always rely on my enemy kindly driving their vehicles into range for me.

It's called the movement phase. You can move meltaguns towards enemy units. Enemy units only have so much board space to retreat to, and they generally don't get to shoot while moving.

Vehicles are not required for a successful guard army. Of course, if you want to include them, there's nothing stopping you. I usually include a few cheap vehicles in my army, but I've grown not to rely on their damage output over time.