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On the Beastmasters entry when it says "Each Beastmaster can be accompanied by one of the following ... 0-5 Khymerae, 0-1 Clawed Fiend, or 0-2 Razorwing." Do the 0-5, 0-1, and 0-2 restrictions apply to the unit or to the beastmaster's selection?

Someone at my local gamestore who's generally very knowledgeable insists its the later. That effectively you can give each Beastmaster 5 Kyhmerae, or 2 Razorwing, or a Clawed Fiend. Making it possible to have 5 clawed fiends or 25 Kyhmerae, or 10 Razorwings.

As opposed to a unit of beast masters that can have 5 beasts in total that cannot exceed 5 Khymerae, 2 Razorwing, or a single Clawed Fiend, which was how I originally read it.

I can see GW justifying either, the first being very characterful and the second being more balanced. The first one just wreaks of not right because of the potential unit size.

Everyones wrong every once and a while and I think this maybe the case with our local gaming guru, what do you guys think?

You can take the following for each bBastmaster. This means a unit of 3 Beastmasters can take 15 Kymerae OR 3 Clawed Fiend et cetera. They can also take combinations like 5 Khymerae, 2 Clawed fiends if desired as well.

From what you said it appears the local guru is correct. It is a limitation on the individual Beastmaster, not on the unit of Beastmasters.

Each beastmaster may take, not each Beastmaster unit.

Therefore it is a limitation PER beastmaster.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Each beastmaster may take, not each Beastmaster unit.

Therefore it is a limitation PER beastmaster.

This +1. Each individual Beastmaster can have one type of beast, up to the maximum for that type of beast.

Further, each Beastmaster may take one of the selections. So a group of 3 Beastmen could take 5 Kymerae, 1 Clawed Fiend and 2 Razorwing Flocks, or just 3 Clawed Fiends. A unit of 2 Beastmen would have to leave one type at home.

Homer

aka_mythos wrote:I can see GW justifying either, the first being very characterful and the second being more balanced. The first one just wreaks of not right because of the potential unit size.

So do you think ork boyz are wrong? They have the same Maximum unit size as Beastmasters, 30.

Gwar! wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I can see GW justifying either, the first being very characterful and the second being more balanced. The first one just wreaks of not right because of the potential unit size.

So do you think ork boyz are wrong? They have the same Maximum unit size as Beastmasters, 30.

To people who dont play orks, squad sizes of 30 seem rather ridiculous. A 30 man marine squad would be pretty crazy and cost at least 450 points.

Its just about point of view.

Termagants, Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, Imperial Guard Infantry, and Conscripts also can be 30 or more. It's not uncommon.

Its not so much the unit size as its the number of creature being handled so drastically out numbering the handlers. I've played IG with combined platoons so I know unit sizes can get big, I'm just not use to seeing those sorts of units in the fast attack slot.

I also find it kinda crazy to picture the beastmasters as potentially being built into this 400+ pt unit.

I'm cool with it which ever way its suppose to be. I plan on running the unit, I just don't want to be screwing over the other guy by throwing down multiple clawed fiends or hoards of Khymerae.

The next question, since there are no pictures to go on, what base sizes should each creature be on?

I was thinking 40mm rounds, like terminators, since it seems to be the easiest for each of the three types to fit on, between the Khymerae effectively being the old "warp beast", the Clawed Fiends depiction in the old rule book, and the tendecy for grubbly little packs of creatures to use this base size. Would you guys agree?

aka_mythos wrote:Its not so much the unit size as its the number of creature being handled so drastically out numbering the handlers.

You never seen the Dog Whisperer? He can have close to 20 Dogs all on leashes.

Still, thanks for the Q for me to add to my FAQ.

Now, just picture those dogs as huge, warp-corrupted, snarling beasts with razor sharp teeth and claws being held on leashes by Arnold Schwarzenegger on a floating surf board and you are golden!

Homer

Honestly, the image though cool, maybe a smidgen ridiculous when taken to extremes.

As an aside, from a conversion stand point, I was hoping the beastmasters would have more than their hoverboard going for them. I so wanted to convert them almost like exodites mounted on dinosaur/cold ones. Doesn't quite fit since the boards do nothing to their stats. Maybe someone else can think of a way to make that idea work.

aka_mythos wrote:Honestly, the image though cool, maybe a smidgen ridiculous when taken to extremes.

As an aside, from a conversion stand point, I was hoping the beastmasters would have more than their hoverboard going for them. I so wanted to convert them almost like exodites mounted on dinosaur/cold ones. Doesn't quite fit since the boards do nothing to their stats. Maybe someone else can think of a way to make that idea work.

The boards simply make them beasts, the same way as boards for Hellions make them Jump Infantry. Feel free to model it as a mount.

Yeah... I'm very tempted just something in my gut tends to say without the toughness bump that mounted units get there'd be something inappropriate about it. What base size would be appropriate if I did? Flying stands, aren't they generally smaller than 40mm?

Also I shot you a PM over another DE question thing.

aka_mythos wrote:
I also find it kinda crazy to picture the beastmasters as potentially being built into this 400+ pt unit.

380, at most.

I was thinking of the fact that you can upgrade one guys weapon to an Agonizer for 20pts. That'd be 400pts. The "+" was to cover anyones crazier idea of adding any thing else to the unit I didn't consider.

Quibbling, but it's 380 with the Agonizer. You could always give em an Haemonculus for a phase to steal his pain token. Then you have 30 guys with Feel no Pain, 25 of which have a 4+ invulnerable save.

That should wreck some face.

DarknessEternal wrote: You could always give em an Haemonculus for a phase to steal his pain token. Then you have 30 guys with Feel no Pain, 25 of which have a 4+ invulnerable save.

That should wreck some face.

Only the beastmaster would have feel no pain... only he has power from pain

Adamah wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote: You could always give em an Haemonculus for a phase to steal his pain token. Then you have 30 guys with Feel no Pain, 25 of which have a 4+ invulnerable save.

That should wreck some face.

Only the beastmaster would have feel no pain... only he has power from pain

Wrong. Check out my DE FAQ as for why.

Or, if you don't want to, it's because the PfP rule grants the abilities to the "entire unit", regardless of the rest of the unit having PfP or not.

Hm, not convinced yet, I couldn't find your FAQ. Care to link? I re read power through pain and it states that a unit with this special rule (which the whole unit doesn't have) gets it and independent characters joining add their pain tokens, it says nothing about if one model in the squad has it than the entire squad does.

Adamah wrote:Hm, not convinced yet, I couldn't find your FAQ. Care to link? I re read power through pain and it states that a unit with this special rule (which the whole unit doesn't have) gets it and independent characters joining add their pain tokens, it says nothing about if one model in the squad has it than the entire squad does.

Link is in my sig, and the EXACT wording is:
"Whenever a Dark Eldar unit with this rule destroys..."
and
"Each Pain Token confers a special rule to the entire unit."

The "Unit with this special rule" bit applies to making the tokens only. So everyone needs to have PfP to make pain tokens, but only one model (at least, since if No-one has PfP no rule tells you what the Pain Tokens do) needs it for everyone to benefit.

Ok, found it, I see where you're coming from because it specifically says it grants the "entire unit" a special rule. However I'm not sure that's enough to override the fact that the unit itself does not have the power through pain rule. Yes it does say "the entire unit" but isn't that referring to the unit with power through pain? And if it does work that way then what keeps a unit that got randomly assigned a pain token but with no power through pain from getting it? I guess we'll have to wait for an official FAQ. Care to elaborate in more detail as to why you think it'd work?

Adamah wrote:Ok, found it, I see where you're coming from because it specifically says it grants the "entire unit" a special rule. However I'm not sure that's enough to override the fact that the unit itself does not have the power through pain rule. I guess we'll have to wait for an official FAQ. Care to elaborate in more detail as to why you think it'd work?

It works because the PfP rule says it does. The PfP rule makes it so that if even 1 model has PfP, you now have a rule saying "the entire unit now benefits from rule XYZ." not "the entire unit that has to all have the PfP special rule to benefit."

It's the same as the Stealth USR, where 1 model with it gives the bonus to the whole unit.

I edited my last post, and where exactly does it say that if even one model has it the entire unit does?

Do you know how a Painboy grants his entire unit Feel No Pain? You have one model with a special rule, and that special rule states that the whole unit gets something.

It's the same situation.

That's for universal special rules... where does it say that works for codex specific special rules? So does that mean that Sliscus's unit of warriors he joins get access to combat drugs?

The rulebook says that models can fire weapons, but your codex doesn't say anything about the weapons in your codex being able to fire.

Is that where this discussion is going?

No, I don't intend that at all. I honestly wasn't aware that any special rule a character had was automatically conferred on a unit unless otherwise specified. Like Sliscus giving warriors combat drugs. I thought that only non starred universal special rules did that. I just wanted to know where it said that. Then I'll shut up.

It's got nothing to do with characters conferring special rules or whatnot.

It's got everything to do with it saying "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit, as shown in the list below"

Do they have a pain token? That's indisputable, since they have one. Therefore, they get a special rule. Having the rule "Power from Pain" is not required.

DarknessEternal wrote:It's got nothing to do with characters conferring special rules or whatnot.

It's got everything to do with it saying "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit, as shown in the list below"

Do they have a pain token? That's indisputable, since they have one. Therefore, they get a special rule. Having the rule "Power from Pain" is not required.

This is correct. Codex makes it clear as crystal.