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So I've read on a couple threads about people complaining when really powerful characters are taken--that they are going for the win, or being cheesy.

Is this for real?

Why wouldn't you take your big guns? Don't you expect your opponent to do the same? Should I tell Orks to quit taking so many boyz cuz it's cheesy to roll 50+ dice?

So what are these unwritten rules about not taking powerful characters? And do you think they have a place in 40K?

I have no problem with that and would find it laughable if anyone else had a problem with me taking a special character. Are some of them cheezy yeah, but I don't think there is really any character in the game that can't be taken out.

People usually complain about speciel character's power until they figure out how to kill it, same thing happened with the doom of malantai.

People who complain about special characters/new rules/new units usually play armies that are built for previous editions and would like every one else to adapt to them instead of adapting to everyone else. Unless you play vanilla marines your codex will be outdated for a while when a new edition comes out and its unreasonable to believe that your 6 year old or whatever codex can just go on doing what its always done in the past and still win all the time. Special characters used to be rare but now they are a big part of the game for changing the FOC around or granting army wide rules. People don't usually take them because they themselves are that powerful they take them to make certain army builds function and if some one tries to tell you that you cant take your special character they are essentially telling you that you can't play the army they way the book was intend to be played.

of course powerful characters have a place in 40k...if not for them, what kind of fluff would we have? I do think however taking them in moderation is extrememly important. I have seen so many battle reports involving BA where a players takes a ridiculous amount of Death company, San guard, Terms, Dante, Lemartes, all in one army list. They end up having like 20 troops on the field for 2000 pts?!?!? I think that is lunacy. Some players just need to learn to use their strongest characters wisely and dont create an entire list based on your strongest characters.

It just is!!

No really I have never understood the mentality of not playing against a list because it includes certains things or is built to beat the living crap out of you.

I expect nothing less I want to vs an opponent that wants fun but some competition. I hate when people call something overpowered, just because they only see 1 aspect of it.

I think that complaining about using Special Characters is a bit of a waste of time, myself. It's much like complaining that you shouldn't take a unit because it's broken; it's in the codex, isn't it?
Really, it tends to come down to people being afraid of the special rules these guys bring to the table and not realising that there are effective ways of dealing with them.

I think that's part of the hobby. I want to play as many people, with as many different builds as possible. Test myself against all. No build is unbeatable! Some builds are a lot stonger then others, but the game is still played with a degree of randomness. So, even the so called weak builds, do have a chance. It might come down to the other guy make'n a dumb move, but hay, thats the game.

everything dies to a 72" S10 AP1 shot( or six) so not much of anything bothers me when it comes to the Enemy. There are some things that are just sick, so you liberate thier heads from thier shoulders with a large projectile.

My own distaste for special characters has nothing to do with the rules for them - I don't field them because I have a hard time imagining Abaddon and Kharn showing up for this tiny little skirmish, let alone the Chapter Masters of two different Chapters. In a giant 15,000 point apocalypse battle? Absolutely. In my tiny little platoon-level engagement? doubtful.

For much the same reason, if I'm going to play a doubles game, I prefer the sides to make at least *some* amount of sense from a fluff perspective.

Special characters and funky army themes are just another part of the game! If you get people refusing to play you solely due to you taking options that are legal and listed in the codex. That's just sad.

Maenus, this is my way of looking at it:

Abaddon and Kharn aren't just fighting a tiny little skirmish.

They're just fighting in one specific part of a huge battle.


And on the subject of people complaining about powerful special characters (and just general powerful units), I personally see this as rather idiotic. You're complaining that your opponent is trying to win.

[sarcasm]
I mean, seriously, what kind of donkey-cave tries to win?
[/sarcasm]

I personally only take my one special character that I have in big games. And the only real reason I have a special character is because I found an Abaddon the Dispoiler blister for $13.00.

I don't like them because they limit my army into a list that has to, at least tactically, go one way or another, instead of my usual all over strategy.

I am sure Abbaddon has been involved in any number of small battles with his "crew". He's 300 freaking points I think he can handle himself.

Yes, but I like focusing on one aspect of my army and have it all go that way when I use a special character, to maximize the effect.

I have spent my entire 40K career avoiding special characters. I don't even like having a mandatory HQ in smaller games. After 22 years of playing, I *finally* made a list that includes a special character, but it is still up in the air whether I want to build a Deathwing army led by Belial. But I have it written down!

gazelle wrote:I have spent my entire 40K career avoiding special characters. I don't even like having a mandatory HQ in smaller games. After 22 years of playing, I *finally* made a list that includes a special character, but it is still up in the air whether I want to build a Deathwing army led by Belial. But I have it written down!

I use Belial most of the time with my DA. 130 pts. for a HQ that lets you take Deathwing as troops. You can't go wrong!

Yes. That is good. However, for CSM you really can't take a special character for their "strategic value." You take it because they kick @$$ in close combat.

I mean most if not all Special Charactes are balanced take Mephiston for example considered a super cheese for a while
he has no invul and plasma woulds him on a 3 anyone with any form of Ap2 turns him into jello... thats just an example all heroes in warhammer have some weakness that makes them worth less than what there paying for
and people that whine about super lists of 20 guys with for example Dante, sanguinary guard, Death Co, etc. just wont function well if your packing some form of High S or low Ap weaponry. Everyone one of their losses is huge and a single shot can swing the game much more than against higher model count armies
so in total taking your special character doesnt matter really, just find his weakness and exploit it
but what you should be scared about in lower points tournys (1500 points example) is the
2 bigmeks kff
6X30 ork boyz
power klaws
and room for more toyz (i think you can fit kanz too)

that is cheese

There are some units that shouldnt really be so powerful. Sure their flawed, but they can primarily pick out a unit of yours and kill it easily before you can retaliate.

Say if i made a toughness 6 5 wound model which is as small as a man so he can take cover, was strength 10 in melee, ws 7 and had a jump pack? Thatd be a bit obnoxious....oh wait.

There already is one.

I would LOVE to fight against a swarm lord or marneus calgar or abaddon these days, I pack plasma to the max, but there are somethings that power > tactical possibility, which shouldnt be.

I admire people who have wits and use tactics with their special characters. But characters who can walk through an army that isnt optimised to kill them is crappent.

Da_Mega_Grot wrote:but what you should be scared about in lower points tournys (1500 points example) is the
2 bigmeks kff
6X30 ork boyz
power klaws
and room for more toyz (i think you can fit kanz too)

that is cheese

You need to deploy bunched up and in a corner, hope he spreds out his force (which he will, cause there isn't enough room for him not to), and hope to heck he gets funneled between some scenery. Shoot, shoot, shoot. It won't work all the time, it might not even work once, but it is what I'd do.

I'll admit at 500 points (so far) a wolfwing is difficult to play but it is fun. It also requires a special character so if someone doesnt want to play my lis they can't play me unless they have a spare army knocking around.

I've never really been a fan of special characters, because it's absurd to think that that'd get involved in these tiny skirmishes. A few squads trying to capture a minor building does make sense - Marneus Calgar helping capture that minor building doesn't.

However, in apocalypse, go nuts. There's Titans, super heavy tanks, multitudes of greater daemons and rare sights in droves. Special characters are in their element here, this is the place for them.

I really don't like GW's new implementation of them. They're basically the trait systems they were playing with in 4th edition, but now not customizable and tied to bringing a special character. The only reason I can think of for this is sales. Special characters take a good sculptor, and it takes them a long time to produce the model. That investment is rarely made back, since people don't field them often. Tying them to list variations ensures those models get sold.

-Loki- wrote:I've never really been a fan of special characters, because it's absurd to think that that'd get involved in these tiny skirmishes. A few squads trying to capture a minor building does make sense - Marneus Calgar helping capture that minor building doesn't.

Well, the above-mentioned method of looking at what plays out on the tabletop as one small, perhaps crucial, section of a much, much larger battlefield is effective for getting over that.

As is simply inventing circumstances. Plenty of what would be considered "special characters" fought, for instance, during the last stand of the Loyalists on Isstvan III. Maybe your chapter/regiment/craftworld/waaagh!/hive fleet/cadre/cabal/host is in a similar situation.

-Loki- wrote:I've never really been a fan of special characters, because it's absurd to think that that'd get involved in these tiny skirmishes. A few squads trying to capture a minor building does make sense - Marneus Calgar helping capture that minor building doesn't.

However, in apocalypse, go nuts. There's Titans, super heavy tanks, multitudes of greater daemons and rare sights in droves. Special characters are in their element here, this is the place for them.

I really don't like GW's new implementation of them. They're basically the trait systems they were playing with in 4th edition, but now not customizable and tied to bringing a special character. The only reason I can think of for this is sales. Special characters take a good sculptor, and it takes them a long time to produce the model. That investment is rarely made back, since people don't field them often. Tying them to list variations ensures those models get sold.

As a few people have mentioned the skirmishes are meant to be part of a bigger battle. Although if i was defending a minor building and i saw an Avatar charge at me i'd freaking leg it.
But maybe the battles we play are just fought because enemies bumped into each other or some people couldn't read a map or their compass is broken or maybe they just decided they should just attack enemy scouting parties for funsies.