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Can Nork Deddog embark in a valkyrie or Vendetta.

P.56 : A valkyrie cannot carry Ogryns

Nowhere does it state that Nork is considered an Ogryn.

How would you play it?

I wouldnt have a problem personally, as he isnt an Ogryn and is definitely, fluff wise, more than a normal Ogryn.

RaW he can fly in them, no problem, and don't listen to anyone who says otherwise.

That's all that matters really.

... This is one of those cases where technically he can but just like DH terminators its against the spirt of things. If you want to use him you can just remember what goes around comes around ...

Q. Can allied models in terminator armour,
such as Grey Knight Terminators, embark in
Valkyries/Vendettas?
A. No. The Valkyrie cannot transport Ogryns or
models of a similar size (such as Terminators).

... again technically doesn't count since its in the allied section but does show that they don't want large models in there ...

SkizO wrote:Nowhere does it state that Nork is considered an Ogryn.

How would you play it?

since you're asking "how would you play it" and not what the RAW is, my answer is that he IS an ogryn. the fluff in the current dex clearly states he is an ogryn in the first sentance. he is clearly modelled as an ogryn both in size and features. previous versions of the same character did include rules about him being a RAW ogryn. the faq that deals with ogryn in a different situation (allies) and states models of a similar size (which he is) can't ride in valks. you'll find that the majority of players will come to that conclusion.

Who cares? Nobody plays Nork anyway.

It's not like it's hard to come up with background reasons a colonel's trusted bodyguard can ride in a vendetta while an independent mob of mentally deficient Ogres cannot.

SkizO wrote:How would you play it?

I would play it as Nork being considered an Ogryn, due to him having the Bulky rule and being described several times in his fluff as an Ogryn.

Outside of rules discussions for purely academic interest, I rather suspect it's what most players would run with.

RAW he can ride in them, but if anyone pulled that againt me they wouldn't get a second game.

spongemonkee wrote:RAW he can ride in them, but if anyone pulled that againt me they wouldn't get a second game.

Really? You do realize that Nork Dedogg is a terrible unit, right? He's like a million points of awful. He's also described in the fluff (and in game rules) as being a hyper vigilant bodyguard. It's hard to imagine somebody really gaining any sort of advantage by running him in a valkyrie.

I am really aware the Nork is not a good choice point-wise. I was planning on a themed catachan army, and wanted to include most of the Catachan named characters.

And I don't like jungle fighting chimeras, the idea sounds a little lame, so wanted to include a few planes for transport.

Thanks all for answering, but I think it's all been said.

Polonius wrote:

spongemonkee wrote:RAW he can ride in them, but if anyone pulled that againt me they wouldn't get a second game.

Really? You do realize that Nork Dedogg is a terrible unit, right? He's like a million points of awful. He's also described in the fluff (and in game rules) as being a hyper vigilant bodyguard. It's hard to imagine somebody really gaining any sort of advantage by running him in a valkyrie.

its nothing to do with how good or bad he is its the attitude towards how people play the game. I'm very much rai and am a bit sick of kowtowing to RAWers.

spongemonkee wrote:

Polonius wrote:

spongemonkee wrote:RAW he can ride in them, but if anyone pulled that againt me they wouldn't get a second game.

Really? You do realize that Nork Dedogg is a terrible unit, right? He's like a million points of awful. He's also described in the fluff (and in game rules) as being a hyper vigilant bodyguard. It's hard to imagine somebody really gaining any sort of advantage by running him in a valkyrie.

its nothing to do with how good or bad he is its the attitude towards how people play the game. I'm very much rai and am a bit sick of kowtowing to RAWers.

Except this is a situation where intent isn't clear. Is there any fluff reason Nork can't ride in a valk? There is no precedent to handle this.

Polonius wrote:Except this is a situation where intent isn't clear. Is there any fluff reason Nork can't ride in a valk? There is no precedent to handle this.

The fact that he has the Bulky rule and is described several times as an Ogryn, IMO, makes the intent very clear. The RAW argument on calling him not an Ogryn is based solely on not having a line in his rules that explicitly says 'Nork counts as an Ogryn'... which is pretty shaky. While there is no specific precedent, GW have shown in similar situations (DoM's Warp Field, for example) that they consider fluff descriptions adequate for determining a model's species...

The RAI argument also assumes that the line "Valks cannot carry Ogryns" means "valkyries cannot carry anything that is an Ogryn," not "valkyries cannot carry squads of Ogryn." You need to make that assumption, followed by the assumption that Nork is an Ogryn, to really connect any form of RAW here.

I think the RAI, more likely than not, is that Nork can't fly. I think you can make a compelling case that Nork can fly. it's not unreasonable to assume that Squads of unsupervised Ogryn aren't allowed to fly inside a navy craft, while the smartest, most loyal ogryn in the imperium would be.

The warp field is a good analogy, but there was no real reason think that they didn't have the Warp Field. With Nork, there is a good reason to think that he's special in a way that his kin are not.

I'm a big fan of RAI, especially when RAW is unclear. However, I think that RAI should only be used when there is a pretty high degree of certainty, and the RAW is genuinely unclear. Here, the RAW isn't unclear: it's just odd. The RAI is also not stunningly clear, with solid arguments being able to made for either side.

Polonius wrote:The warp field is a good analogy, but there was no real reason think that they didn't have the Warp Field. With Nork, there is a good reason to think that he's special in a way that his kin are not.

the same argument was used for the doom of malantai in that he doesn't have a rule stating he counts as the base type of unit that he is obviously a subset of visually and in the fluff for rules elsewhere in the codex; GW refuted that in the FAQ for DoM clearly and indirectly for Nork (since he's of "similar size" to ogryns). just because it nerfs in one case and betters in the other doesn't mean the underlying argument is any different. the RAI is quite clear and so is the RAW; unfortunately, they're opposite. discuss it with your opponent prior to trying to put him in a valk is the best advice in these types of situations.

Polonius wrote:it's not unreasonable to assume that Squads of unsupervised Ogryn aren't allowed to fly inside a navy craft, while the smartest, most loyal ogryn in the imperium would be.

But then, that's assuming that the reason for Ogryn not being allowed aboard is because they'll cause a ruckuss, rather than simply because they don't fit, as with Terminators in Rhinos...

Either way it's an assumption, which is why I think sticking with RAW might be the best, particularly given as it won't in any way be abusive.

insaniak wrote:

Polonius wrote:it's not unreasonable to assume that Squads of unsupervised Ogryn aren't allowed to fly inside a navy craft, while the smartest, most loyal ogryn in the imperium would be.

But then, that's assuming that the reason for Ogryn not being allowed aboard is because they'll cause a ruckuss, rather than simply because they don't fit, as with Terminators in Rhinos...

Also as i mention earlier GW stated that "The Valkyrie cannot transport Ogryns or models of a similar size (such as Terminators)." ... what size is Nork? He about Ogryn size? (though its odd to base a rule on size ... got to wonder if a model with a standard could fit)

Tri wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Polonius wrote:it's not unreasonable to assume that Squads of unsupervised Ogryn aren't allowed to fly inside a navy craft, while the smartest, most loyal ogryn in the imperium would be.

But then, that's assuming that the reason for Ogryn not being allowed aboard is because they'll cause a ruckuss, rather than simply because they don't fit, as with Terminators in Rhinos...

Also as i mention earlier GW stated that "The Valkyrie cannot transport Ogryns or models of a similar size (such as Terminators)." ... what size is Nork? He about Ogryn size? (though its odd to base a rule on size ... got to wonder if a model with a standard could fit)

interesting. All right, i guess it seems more likely the RAI argument goes against Nork enough. I still don't' think the RAW is unclear enough to change it, but I wouldn't complain if anybody made that call.

I have never, EVER seen anyone in real life say that Nork is NOT an ogryn.

In my opinion (and everyone I have ever met and played against) it is pretty clear both in the description, the fluff, and the model itself that he is one.

Obviosly he's an ogryn. The question to me is if the valk rules prohibit things that are ogryns, or ogryn squads.

The FAQ seems to clear up GW's intent, but before that I felt it was plausible that a handpicked bodyguard could ride in a vehicle when a squad of brutes couldn't.

After reading the FAQ, it strongly suggests that Ogryns can't ride because of bulk, much like termies. Which means that RAI is stronger that Nork can't ride. that still doesn't make him by RAW an Ogryn, at least not in the strictest sense.

Polonius wrote:
After reading the FAQ, it strongly suggests that Ogryns can't ride because of bulk, much like termies. Which means that RAI is stronger that Nork can't ride.

Just re-read the material myself, and came to the same conclusion. However, my 2 cents is that he is an ogryn. I think that when GW wrote it, they were thinking that with the word ogryn in his background/fluff/description, they wouldn't need to put "He is an Ogryn" in neon bold letter across the entry page.

*EDITED to make more sense. Dang you booze*

Hey, i think that even GW did write "He is an ogryn" in neon bold letters you could make the argument that he could still fly.

The reason is that the valk forbids "Ogryns", which everybody here reads as a descriptor, "models that are ogryns". I think it could be read as "Ogryn Squads," still allowing a single Ogryn to ride.

I don't think that now, after seeing the FAQ, but putting in a missing word is no longer RAW, it's RAI. I like RAI just fine, I'm just still not sold on the RAW being unclear (It's not, it's just dumb) and the RAI being super clear (I still think that treating a special character special is part of what GW likes to do.)

Fundamentally anybody that would disallow this needs to ask themselves why. If your opponent brings Nork it's like free points.