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I've been playing around with this list while trying to bring my Salamanders up to 2000. It is aimed to be a competitive list and possibly one that is manageable at GTs. Two units that I'm particularly looking for advice on are the Sternguard and the third tactical squad. It is worth mentioning that the role of the third tactical squad is to sit on the home objective, so I'm not sure if the Razorback is necessary. Anyways, please tear it apart.

2000 Salamanders Space Marines

Vulkan 190 (Will land with the Sternguard in the Drop Pod)
Assault Terminator Squad (5): TH/SSx5 (200) in Land Raider Redeemer: Multimelta (250)
Sternguard Veterans (10): 4xCombi-Melta, 4xCombi-Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod (235)
Tactical Squad (10): Meltagun, MM, PF (200) in Rhino (35)
Tactical Squad (10): Meltagun, MM, PF (200) in Rhino (35)
Tactical Squad (5): Combi-flamer (100) in Razorback: TL Lascannon (75)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)

Thanks,

CreepyCrawly

I love the list. A few things though:

Sternguard are great, but I would take 10x combi meltas with them. With Vulkan, redeemer, speeders, and of course your vindicators, you have enough crowd control. Dropping down with combat squad, shooting 5 meltas at 2 tanks you could kill up to 2 land raiders when they come in. With the amount of mech compared to foot sloggers these days, melta>flamer as much as you can.

Always take extra armor on a Land raider redeemer. Glancing hits are common on AV14, therefore crew stunned is also very common. On a tank where template placement is crucial, even if you are stunned you can still move 12 and drop a str 6 ap3 template. Without extra armor you are just stuck in place vulnerable to assaults.

For an objective babysitting unit, take 5x Sniper Scouts. For 90 points, you get 5 models with a 2 plus cover save (3+ with cloak, go to ground for 2+ whenever you take hits)

Vulkan would probably be better served riding with the Terminators for his assault capability.

You also miscalculated your sternguard cost.

Try this:

Vulkan 190
Assault Terminator Squad (5): TH/SSx5 (200) in Land Raider Redeemer: Multimelta, extra armor (265)
Sternguard Veterans (10): 10x Combi melta, Drop Pod (335)
Tactical Squad (10): Meltagun, MM, combi flamer, rhino, (220)
Tactical Squad (10): meltagun, MM, combi-flamer, rhino (220)
10x Sniper scouts, heavy bolter with hellfire rounds, camo cloaks - (180)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (125)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (125)

The snipers can combat squad to cover 2 objectives on seize ground, or stay as 10 for capture + control/annihilation. Sternguard combat squad in pod and kill 2 tanks on arrival. 17 melta weapons to make tanks cry and you still have tons of anti-horde.

I would take a ten man squad with flamer/ml over the 5man with combi flamer and razorback. IMO you get roughly the same fire power, as razorbacks are really easy to silence.

The thought with the sternguard was that the squad would come down next to a transport, combat squad, melta the transport with the meltas, then flame whatever is inside the transport.

I am usually a fan of powerfists in tac squads. Do you have other experiences with this?

Also, how effective do you find a ten man sniper scout squad?

CreepyCrawly wrote:The thought with the sternguard was that the squad would come down next to a transport, combat squad, melta the transport with the meltas, then flame whatever is inside the transport.

I am usually a fan of powerfists in tac squads. Do you have other experiences with this?

Also, how effective do you find a ten man sniper scout squad?

The Sternguards special ammunition should be sufficient enough to kill whatever survives the explosion (5 twin linked combi meltas is gonna cause an explosion). If they are weaker then MEQ only like 5 are gonna survive, so finish them off with hellfire/dragonfire shots. If its MEQ then hit them with the AP3 rounds.

Pfists in tac squads is great, and I usually buy them if I have spare points. But they are super expensive and you wanna avoid close combat anyway. Its not gonna make a difference in combat with a dedicated assault unit anyway.

10 Man sniper squad is gonna be better then a 5 man tac squad in a razor for babysitting objectives. 2+ save when going to ground, and they can combat squad and infiltrate to cover up to 2 objectives (seize ground). Their damage output is minimal, but who cares.

I'd drop the Vindy's unless you're fighting a swarm army and pack some more termys

I know that this is a CC army, but do you need that many Power Fists?

Also, I think Combi-Meltas would be more effective than a combi-flamer, but I do see the benefits of having the flamers.

Also, I would drop the Heavy Flamer in the Sterngaurd, Maybe a Multimelta but not a Heavy Flamer.

I would also put Vulkan with the Assault Terminators in the Land Raider. He is more of a Melee fighter than a ranged fighter and the Terminators would benefit from his Heavy Flamer before an assault.

Thanks to everyone for all the advice to date. Here is my updated thought

Vulkan 190
Assault Terminator Squad (5): TH/SSx5 (200) in Land Raider Redeemer: Multimelta, extra armor (265)
Sternguard Veterans (10): 10xCombi melta, Drop Pod (335)
Tactical Squad (10): Meltagun, MM, combi flamer, rhino (220)
Tactical Squad (10): Meltagun, MM, combi-flamer, rhino (220)
10x Sniper scouts, heavy bolter with hellfire rounds, camo cloaks - (180)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)

Total: 1990

For the last ten points, I am drawing a loss. It would be a lot of fun to drop two combi-meltas and put two Heavy Flamers into the Sternguard. Otherwise, I would just give the Tac Squad sergeants meltabombs. Any ideas?

CreepyCrawly wrote:Thanks to everyone for all the advice to date. Here is my updated thought

Vulkan 190
Assault Terminator Squad (5): TH/SSx5 (200) in Land Raider Redeemer: Multimelta, extra armor (265)
Sternguard Veterans (10): 10xCombi melta, Drop Pod (335)
Tactical Squad (10): Meltagun, MM, combi flamer, rhino (220)
Tactical Squad (10): Meltagun, MM, combi-flamer, rhino (220)
10x Sniper scouts, heavy bolter with hellfire rounds, camo cloaks - (180)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)

Total: 1990

For the last ten points, I am drawing a loss. It would be a lot of fun to drop two combi-meltas and put two Heavy Flamers into the Sternguard. Otherwise, I would just give the Tac Squad sergeants meltabombs. Any ideas?

Use the last 10 points to bump up your Vindicators dozer blades to siege shields. HF on sternguard are not needed, because you have 3 already (vulkan+ speeders), and meltabombs are not needed either because the squad already has 10x krak grenades, and you have more then enough melta.

A single Land Raider and Drop Pod in a 2k list is just going to fail :(

Raider will easily get taken out before it gets into range to unleash the Terminators - which should be a Crusader btw.

Single Drop Pod will come down first turn and the Marines will come out and maybe pop a tank, that's it. Next turn they're dead. Pods come in multples and odd numbers.

Replace Scouts with another Tactical Squad.

Vindicators don't need dozer blades really.

By combat squading you should have enough scoring with just the two tactical squads. While multimeltas are nice to take advantage of Vulkan you probably would be better off with missile launchers for the increased range so your combat squads can sit back in the deployment zone and be firing all game, while the close range halves advance in their rhinos.

I actually think you should replace the scouts with a drop podding dreadnought with locator beacon, beacon makes the pod a threat with your other pod and speeders coming in, and so in turn draws fire... or should if people are smart. Pods should come in odd numbers only when you have lots of them. When you have a low number they should be evenly split between pods you need to drop on things and pods that can operate with nothing on the board. A dreadnought is one of those second options while sternguard in a pod are only good when dropping on the enemy.

I liked the split sternguard squad with a mix of melta's and flamers. I think a 7 melta 1 combi flamer, and 2 heavy flamers is often the most effective build. That way if you split and the 5 melta's somehow fail to wreck something you have 2 more that should finish the job, but also have some flamer template death to lay on the enemy its often hard to get more than 3 templates effectively placed as well. Heavy flamers especially in a Vulkan build are hands down one of the best weapons in the game. Against the current meta of weak side and rear armor vehicles they can effectively deal with vehicles as well, and ignore pesky cover saves from smoke launchers. Also never ever put Vulkan in this unit, they are more then killy enough on their own and he will die horribly along with them. Put Vulkan in one of the rhinos with a tactical half.

Raider will easily get taken out before it gets into range to unleash the Terminators - which should be a Crusader btw.

Single Drop Pod will come down first turn and the Marines will come out and maybe pop a tank, that's it. Next turn they're dead. Pods come in multples and odd numbers.

@mercer: On the first point, I agree with you in theory. However, proper deployment of the land raider in conjunction with other units in the army (screening with rhinos, dismounted tactical marines) can reduce the likelihood of a successful first round melta-ing. Other than meltas (which generally need to be within 6" to be effective), only railguns and bright lances provide real threats to it. However, thats a risk I am willing to take. Also, I like the Redeemer purely for the fluff/they look awesome. The LR is first a transport, so I want to get that close anyways. If I get a shot off, at least I'll feel all happy inside.

As for the Sternguard, they are flexible enough that I dont have to use them as a suicide unit. Yes, they are very good at taking down a tank or two. They are also good at landing next to a squad of long fangs, decimating them with special ammunition, then provide a threat to the entire space wolves flank. Anything that is firing at my sternguard is not firing at my main advancing force.

By combat squading you should have enough scoring with just the two tactical squads. While multimeltas are nice to take advantage of Vulkan you probably would be better off with missile launchers for the increased range so your combat squads can sit back in the deployment zone and be firing all game, while the close range halves advance in their rhinos.

@OrdoSean: I like to use my tac squads to take forward objectives, and they will be continuously pushing and on the move. Therefore, I generally dont like the combat squad. I agree that Missile Launchers might be better, yet having a twin-linked multimelta sitting in a rhino forces an enemy to second-guess advancing against this unit with armor. The scout unit's sole job is to sit on the home objective and maybe cause a casualty or two. Find me a better marine unit to do it, and I'll consider it.

Meltaguns are what can do it over and things like scouting melta Vets/CCS in Valkyries will hurt you, so will Wave Serpents with Fire Dragons. You will then only get 50% chance of cover save due to deployment from Rhinos and once that Raider is gone that's it, Terminators on foot. So, in larger lists you should have two because there will be so much fire power able to take down the Raiders. Btw lances are over rated, need 5+ to penetrate so I wouldn't worry about them too much, though Dark Eldar would be a pain.

Well Long Fangs or any Devastator squads should be in terrain for a start, and if the Long Fangs do get battered then prepare to be assaulted by Space Wolves. Therefore you need multiple Pods because this unit will come down first turn and is the only unit; it has no support.

@OrdoSean: I like to use my tac squads to take forward objectives, and they will be continuously pushing and on the move. Therefore, I generally dont like the combat squad. I agree that Missile Launchers might be better, yet having a twin-linked multimelta sitting in a rhino forces an enemy to second-guess advancing against this unit with armor. The scout unit's sole job is to sit on the home objective and maybe cause a casualty or two. Find me a better marine unit to do it, and I'll consider it.

Both lists look fine to me. It's true you aren't optimized but that doesn't mean they are terrible.

Should you have more than 1 DP? Yes. Does that mean taking one is a HUGE mistake? No. Should you try to have to LRR full of TH/SS termies rather than 1? Yes. Does that mean you ALWAYS have to take 2 super expensive units to do well? No. You see where I am going with this, the list can be better and it can be worse. This list isn't terrible nor is it amazing. It is good/solid and there really is nothing wrong with that.

@OrdoSean: The difference with the tactical squad is between what I want to do and what my opponent thinks I will do. I know I want to move my tactical squads constantly, but my opponent will view the unit based off his threat perception, not my unknown (to him) intentions.

For those of you who disagree with either the single drop pod or the single LR, can you propose changes to correct this? This army is completely open to change at this point, so I appreciate any suggestions to that end.

mercer wrote:Meltaguns are what can do it over and things like scouting melta Vets/CCS in Valkyries will hurt you, so will Wave Serpents with Fire Dragons. You will then only get 50% chance of cover save due to deployment from Rhinos and once that Raider is gone that's it, Terminators on foot. So, in larger lists you should have two because there will be so much fire power able to take down the Raiders. Btw lances are over rated, need 5+ to penetrate so I wouldn't worry about them too much, though Dark Eldar would be a pain.

Well Long Fangs or any Devastator squads should be in terrain for a start, and if the Long Fangs do get battered then prepare to be assaulted by Space Wolves. Therefore you need multiple Pods because this unit will come down first turn and is the only unit; it has no support.

So, then you have 1k pts invetsed in two units and since most people bring 3 FD squads at 2k that would be a bad thing imo. Poping smoke in the first turn will give you 100% chance of gaining a +4 coversave, with proper screeinging not many melta guns should be within 6".
Taking just one LR is fine, you cant play it recklessly but thats a given. Taking two LRs with termies just turns your list into a rock army.

Tried the list a few times on Vassal vs BA razorspam and SW razorspam (wow people are original these days). List is pretty solid and I won both games.

Scouts are amazing at holding objectives, and aren't bad shooting either (cleaned up low strength squads with them, and popped a razorback with one volley). I went and bought a box of them for my list, because I was really impressed on how they performed.

1 Land Raider is fine, as long as you arent stupid with it. Keep it surrounded by friendly tanks til it gets to the enemy lines for cover saves. Don't let enemy melta get close.

The Sternguard are a bid dodgy though. They are hard to drop in a good spot and make their points back without getting killed. 1 drop pod is probably not enough, so maybe drop them for a 100pts nullzone librarian and another speeder and powerfists on the tac sergeants (220pts)

I completely agree...if you wanted to be super-competitive then get another raider full of TH/SS termies. That's how Vulkan rolls. If you don't, then this list is very solid.

The only change I would make would be to take combi-meltas instead of flamers on your tac squads. That way you've got 2 rolls on the damage table in case that 1/2 comes up.

To completely beef if out tho...
- Drop the sternies, scouts and vindies
- Get another group of TH/SS termies and stick 'em in your favorite flavor of land raider
- Get another tac squad
- Fill the rest out with more MM/HF speeders

tedurur wrote:

mercer wrote:Meltaguns are what can do it over and things like scouting melta Vets/CCS in Valkyries will hurt you, so will Wave Serpents with Fire Dragons. You will then only get 50% chance of cover save due to deployment from Rhinos and once that Raider is gone that's it, Terminators on foot. So, in larger lists you should have two because there will be so much fire power able to take down the Raiders. Btw lances are over rated, need 5+ to penetrate so I wouldn't worry about them too much, though Dark Eldar would be a pain.

Well Long Fangs or any Devastator squads should be in terrain for a start, and if the Long Fangs do get battered then prepare to be assaulted by Space Wolves. Therefore you need multiple Pods because this unit will come down first turn and is the only unit; it has no support.

So, then you have 1k pts invetsed in two units and since most people bring 3 FD squads at 2k that would be a bad thing imo. Poping smoke in the first turn will give you 100% chance of gaining a +4 coversave, with proper screeinging not many melta guns should be within 6".
Taking just one LR is fine, you cant play it recklessly but thats a given. Taking two LRs with termies just turns your list into a rock army.

No it isn't. You've got to invest other units to protect it keeping them bunched up and moving at the same rate as the Land Raider for majority of the time. 4+ cover save isn't guranteed btw. Perhaps I'm used to playing with rock armies?

scubasteve04 wrote:Tried the list a few times on Vassal vs BA razorspam and SW razorspam (wow people are original these days). List is pretty solid and I won both games.

Scouts are amazing at holding objectives, and aren't bad shooting either (cleaned up low strength squads with them, and popped a razorback with one volley). I went and bought a box of them for my list, because I was really impressed on how they performed.

1 Land Raider is fine, as long as you arent stupid with it. Keep it surrounded by friendly tanks til it gets to the enemy lines for cover saves. Don't let enemy melta get close.

The Sternguard are a bid dodgy though. They are hard to drop in a good spot and make their points back without getting killed. 1 drop pod is probably not enough, so maybe drop them for a 100pts nullzone librarian and another speeder and powerfists on the tac sergeants (220pts)

lol Angel and Wolf Razor-spam, gotta love it, though I play Angel Razor-Spam, so....lol anyway...

Good one on the Scouts. I've used them before, ok for objectives but never really did a lot. If you're taking 10 I would split into combat squads, if you are though.

That's the thing you cannot plough the Raider ahead and let it get on with it, you have to be careful with it and baby sit it - you shouldn't need to do this with armour 14 tanks :(

Er, yeah, told you about the Sternguard Librarian would be great and Speeders as always, no fists on the Tacticals because you should combat squad really, or if moving up in 10 man squads means not firing the multi melta to charge - either way not going to work, best take a combi melta instead - twin-linked means more chances of hitting that single shot

Ok, taking into account the comments about redundancy, I've added a second Land Raider with Termies. How does this look?

Vulkan (190)
Assault Terminators (5): 5xTH/SS in LRR w/ EA and MM (465)
Assault Terminators (5): 5xTH/SS (200)
Tactical Squad (10): Flamer, ML, Combi-melta, in Rhino (215)
Tactical Squad (10): Flamer, ML, Combi-melta, in Rhino (215)
Land Speeder: MM/HF (70)
Land Speeder: MM/HF (70)
Land Speeder: MM/HF (70)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)
LRR: EA, MM (265)

Total: 2000

it look risky.. just 2 scoring units in 2000p games is just like a suicide in 2/3 of games type.

I don't think you really need 2 LRR. Maybe you don't even need one..

Pay attention.. I'm a Nid/Bikers SM player and I usually have alwais something to manage 2 Land Raiders of any type so I'm not the best one that can show you all the goods distinguishing features of these rock units.

I used to run 2 LRR full of TH/SS termies. It was pretty unsucessfull and I hate playing it. Either your opponent doesnt have enough tools to deal with 2 Land raiders, then its a stupid 1-sided unfun game, or the opponent can deal with Land riaders, then you get absolutly destroyed. You don't need to be redundant with Land Raiders like other cheaper support stuff - they are just too expensive. Just play smart with the one Redeemer and you will be fine

Vulkan 190
Assault Terminator Squad (5): TH/SSx5 (200) in Land Raider Redeemer: Multimelta, extra armor (265)
Dreadnought 2x Twin Linked Autocannons (125)
Dreadnought 2x Twin Linked Autocannons (125)
Tactical Squad (10): flamer, ML, combi Melta, rhino (215)
Tactical Squad (10): flamer, ML, combi Melta, rhino (215)
Tactical Squad (10): flamer, ML, combi-Melta, rhino (215)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Land Speeder: HF/MM (70)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)
Vindicator: Dozerblade (120)

This is a good all around list. You got all your bases covered here. Standard troop selections with a varity of weaponry for any job, Your hammer unit (LRR with terms/vulk) Fast skimmers for flanking and late game contesting, two vindicators for str 10 pie plates, and two rifleman dreadnought for busting transports and light vehicles. You have 11 vehicles on the field, all a threat to any list.

I honeslty really like this last list.

Not the best available one but truly an ALL COMERS/Fun and Fluffy/but still competitive list.

Thumb Up

mercer wrote:
That's the thing you cannot plough the Raider ahead and let it get on with it, you have to be careful with it and baby sit it - you shouldn't need to do this with armour 14 tanks :(

If Im paying 755pts for a unit, your damn right im going to babysit it. If my opponent leaves an opening for me to move 12" forward, disembark and assault (multi assault if needed, terms out the front, libby out one side and vulkan out the other), I'll take it; but until then I'm going to be careful with it and ensure it isnt destroyed. Your cannot be careless with that expensive of a unit. It's not a fire and forget weapon like the Land Speeders.