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Hi guys, i'm a new Eldar player and i'm trying to find out if Eldrad is able to receive a bonus for having a pistol when fighting with his staff (making him A2) but my friend (a BA player) says that i either get a single PW hit or two normal hits (because of his Witchblade), but i've heard people say that its one or the other and i can't get a clear answer. so here's my question: does Eldrad's staff give his Witchblade the power weapon ability at the cost its can opening ability (S9 against tanks) or is it a weapon in itself and if then, is it one or two handed?

Eldrad actually has 3 weapons in close combat: shuriken pistol, witchblade, and Staff of Ulthamar.

He can use the pistol and either of the other two to have 2 attacks.

The staff does not count for any extra strength against vehicles, but he can use the witchblade against vehicles if he chooses.

yeah thats what i said to my friend but he's so hell bend on keeping Eldrad with one power weapon attack

DarknessEternal wrote:Eldrad actually has 3 weapons in close combat: shuriken pistol, witchblade, and Staff of Ulthamar.

He can use the pistol and either of the other two to have 2 attacks.

The staff does not count for any extra strength against vehicles, but he can use the witchblade against vehicles if he chooses.

Wrong, he only ever gets one attack unless he's charging or getting some other special rule. He has to choose between two special weapons, and thus does not get the extra attack for wielding two CCWs.

but doesn't he chose between the two special weapons? he doesn't have three hands so one of them can be put away, he could wield one special weapon and his pistol to gain an additional attack (assuming of course the Staff is one handed)

That is the logical assumption, but the rules say otherwise, which is just..strange.

For more information check p42, which say that models with 2 special weapons can NEVER get the extra attack for 2 hand weapons.

true, but the thing i'm saying referring to the rule for a special weapon and another close combat weapon i.e. pistol, what i'm saying that he can't be penalised for using his staff and pistol when not even using his Witchblade. i know the rule says that they choose, however its the idea of equipping him with his pistol and weapon of choice rather that wielding both weapons is rather unreasonable (because of that rule)

He has had to choose, so he NEVER gets the bonus attack.

Queue can of worms where people disagree over the word "never"

Uhhmm, let's put it this way, eldrad can choose between the following weapons:
His special Singing Spear (two handed): He gets a single attack.
His witchblade (one handed): In this case he COULD use the pistol for getting +1A, sadly he has another special weapon, meaning that he cannot get this bonus due to the rule on p.42.

Is it clear enough? (I suck at explaining. )

Eldrads staff isnt a 2 handed weapon tho

... This has been done to death ....
Option
A) You may never get a bonus attack for having more then one different SCCW
B) In order to use the weapons rules you must pick a combination first, since you can only use two weapons at once.

... I play B. For more information read one of the last times this came up ... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240925.page

The RAW seems to favor not allowing the Bonus attack. It's odd, but given that Eldrad is commonly seen as an overpowered special character, you're not going to engender a ton of sympathy.

If everybody is ok with playing +1 attack (I know my area is), than knock yourself out. But when people start calling it, they are technically correct. (the best kind of correct!)

Oscarius wrote:Uhhmm, let's put it this way, eldrad can choose between the following weapons:
His special Singing Spear (two handed): He gets a single attack.
His witchblade (one handed): In this case he COULD use the pistol for getting +1A, sadly he has another special weapon, meaning that he cannot get this bonus due to the rule on p.42.

Is it clear enough? (I suck at explaining. )

That would work except that "never" means just that. And there is nothing in the special plus another weapon rule that overrides the word never. The only rule that permits you to choose between two different special weapons, which he has to do, says that he never gets +1 attack. And never means never. It's really that simple.

Well I'm not sure, I guess I could always ask the GW staff at my local place if it's ok, cuz it's basic stuff, but it's all blurred with Elrad he (like all Eldar) screws the rules But im thinking it's right what Tri said, it's all more clear thanks to all your imput

I concur with Tri and use option B.

You don't get the bonus attack.

Anyone saying otherwise is deliberately ignoring the rules for gain.

that's needlessly hostile. A person could read the rules differently. I mean, a model with two specials and a normal does also have a special and a normal, and so could arguably claim to use that rule.

Assigning motive to actions is always tricky, and usually based more on the assignor's own biases than anything else.

Except in this case the RaW is clear. Crystal Clear.

It is not "hostile", it is a statement of fact. Funny how you say "Assigning motive to actions is always tricky, and usually based more on the assignor's own biases than anything else." yet then assign a motive to my comments.

Gwar! wrote:You don't get the bonus attack.

Anyone saying otherwise is deliberately ignoring the rules for gain.

We've been over this debate before and it still stands that "fighting with 2 different speical weapons" is a sub rule of "fighting with 2 hand weapons". If the model has more then 2 hand weapons then ether they must choose two before checking effect or they can never use any of the rules, as they are for using one or two weapons and no more.

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:You don't get the bonus attack.

Anyone saying otherwise is deliberately ignoring the rules for gain.

We've been over this debate before and it still stands that "fighting with 2 different speical weapons" is a sub rule of "fighting with 2 hand weapons". If the model has more then 2 hand weapons then ether they must choose two before checking effect or they can never use any of the rules, as they are for using one or two weapons and no more.

Exactly. They must choose. Therefore, they NEVER (which means Not Ever) get the bonus attack.

Thanks for agreeing with me (and the RaW) buddy!

Edit moving into one lump ---\/---

Gwar! wrote:Except in this case the RaW is clear. Crystal Clear.

It is not "hostile", it is a statement of fact. Funny how you say "Assigning motive to actions is always tricky, and usually based more on the assignor's own biases than anything else." yet then assign a motive to my comments.

Crystal clear to you. If you're smart enough to nitpick technical details, than you're smart enough to realize that there are different interpretations possible.

I agree with you, in that I think the rules are pretty clear. But I think saying it's impossible to read the rules otherwise without having a specific motive is, in fact, based more on assumptions than I'm comfortable with.

And I'm not ascribing a motive to you. I was making a generalization, but not an all inclusive one. Most efforts to figure out motive are, in fact, based on the viewer rather than the actor. Ask any criminal defense lawyer. At most, I was saying that you're basis for your comment is flawed, but I never spoke of motive.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:You don't get the bonus attack.

Anyone saying otherwise is deliberately ignoring the rules for gain.

We've been over this debate before and it still stands that "fighting with 2 different speical weapons" is a sub rule of "fighting with 2 hand weapons". If the model has more then 2 hand weapons then ether they must choose two before checking effect or they can never use any of the rules, as they are for using one or two weapons and no more.

Exactly. They must choose. Therefore, they NEVER (which means Not Ever) get the bonus attack.

Thanks for agreeing with me (and the RaW) buddy!

No Theres no rule for using any weapons on a model with more then three.
You ether pick two first and then go through the list with that selection; or the model cannot use any of the weapons.

Pick two weapons.
Go through the rules.
Have you chosen a special weapon? Yes.
Therefore, no bonus attack.

And for the record, before anyone gets upset, if this came up in a game, I would have mentioned it pre-game, and if my opponent was really stroppy about it, I would let him, then make sure to never let the model get into CC.

Gwar! wrote:Pick two weapons.
Go through the rules.
Have you chosen a special weapon? Yes.
Therefore, no bonus attack.

And for the record, before anyone gets upset, if this came up in a game, I would have mentioned it pre-game, and if my opponent was really stroppy about it, I would let him, then make sure to never let the model get into CC.

You can only use the two special weapons rule if you have chosen two special weapons. If you have any other combination you ignore it.

Going around in circles now.

Polonius summed it up very well, IMHO.