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So I don't know EXACTLY all the details of this unit but I know the big picture.

~25 Warriors
MoT
Shields
FC
Blasted Standard
MoT BSB with Frenzy Banner NO FRENZY BANNER, THIS GUY HAS A 3+ WARD SAVE
MoT Lvl 4 with 3+ Ward Save
Somewhere in there he also has Magic Resistance 2, though that doesn't really affect Dwarfs.


EDIT: THIS UNIT DOES NOT HAVE THE FRENZY BANNER, I WAS MISTAKEN
So how would I deal with this?

If I shoot at it, he takes his 4+ Ward Save and I dont do enough damage, and all his other units (3x 18 Warriors With halberds and MoK) get to me unharmed and smash my face in.

If I ignore it, the unit gets to me and I just can't deal with it. Even 25 Warriors with great weapons in the flank will at best (keeping it realistic) only win combat by 1 or 2.

I think the Frenzy banner is actually counter productive here. The advantage of the Mark of Tzeentch and shields is to get a 5+ parry. But frenzied troops cannot benefit from a parry and so he loses that.

What else is in the army?

Pending that information, here's how I'd look to deal with it:

Possibility 1) Put hand weapon/shield longbeards supported by a tough fighty lord in the front. He'll need 4s to hit, 4s to wound, and you save on 5s and 6s, and that's only on attacks that aren't stuck going at your super-tough lord.

Possibility 2) Send a solo lord into the front (with a BSB in range). With unkillable build, he can either kill or tie up each character in turn. You'll be working against a static 5 (4 on the turn you charge). If you can cause 2 wounds (or 1 on the charge) you'll be on a re-rollable 7, and it gets better once the BSB has to challenge out and die.

In either scenario, follow up with a flank charge from great weapon warriors/longbeards or hammerers (or even better, do it on the same turn). He can't turn to face while engaged on two flanks, so won't have as many attacks to the side. Additionally, with sufficient ranks, you will disrupt him. If your lord can drop the BSB, you can get rid of frenzy and should be able to pull the win.

It's by no means perfect, but there's just not a lot of options available.

RZ

A dwarven slayer that is kitted out to kill heroes. He has to issue challenges every turn, you just accept them and beat the hell out of 2 heroes and a champ. With unbreakable, you don't care if you loose to combat res. That's at least 3 rounds of combat he's tied up and he'll loose his BSB.

Let me dig through my army book and get back to you with a build or two.

edit: clarity

Problem with sending in a Slayer is that a WoC character will tear him apart if you don't kill him. Best you could get is S6 ASF, which means that you hit 3 times (with a Lord), wound hopefully 3 times, and then pray that he fails his saves, which on the lord he won't. Maybe not that bad, but a pile of points out of your lord allotment.

I'd try sticking a large unit of GW warriors into their flank. Get steadfast and just keep swinging.

And with a 3+ ward save the WoC lord isnt going anywhere.

FLank seems to be the best bet. However if he has 3 other units then you shouldnt get the flank until theyre gone - so concentrate on killing them via shooting or possibly combat (if you can flank the flankers. unlikely) to clear the flanks.

If you cannot get to him first time let him beat through a sacrificial unit, overrun and flank / rear where you can.

How many points are we talking here?

x4 units of warriors =/> 18 is a pretty huge investment.
3 rune of accuracy stone throwers, and engineers.
120 handgunners in 2 ranks of 20 each.

6-9 stone thrower shots and
360 shots will turn it to pulp (go 2nd, turn 1, turn 2, stand and shoot turn 3)


Or a unit of 40 iron breakers 5 wide for stedfast to hold them up, then as suggested by others flank him with GW units.

Yeah, the slayer isn't a great idea, simply because, as others have pointed out he can't get past the ward saves reliably and you could just be giving away a lot of points.

Didn't think of ironbreakers because I never use the things, but yes, they'd be better than longbeards in my suggestion.

RZ

Against a sorc lord?

Master rune of smiting, Master rune of swiftness and rune of speed= ASF, I6, d6 wounds

Master Rune of Skalf and rune of fury= always wound on 2+ with proper Str to do it, A5

There is a lot you can do with it.

Also, Gonads, you broke the Rule of Pride.

I'm sure he meant that they all had rune of accuracy and some other combo.

i.e. GT #1: Rune of accuracy, rune of penetrating
GT #2: Rune of accuracy, rune of penetrating, rune of burning
GT #3: Rune of accuracy, rune of penetrating x2

And for that matter, you're breaking runic rules yourself. Can't put two master runes on the same item, so your first option is a no go.

The second will still have issues dropping a 3+ ward save sorcerer lord.

Frenzy is terrible of Tzeench warriors with shields.

i would be more concerned if he had the banner of wrath bound spell in the unit.


Ironbreakers with GWs should do the job nicely. don't have any characters in the unit so he doesn't have anything to challange(no sense in giving a free EotG roll) and let them just grind through his warriors. he will only have a 6+ armor and 6+ ward against you and you will only be at -1 to your armor save and he only gets 19 attacks plus the BSBs attacks.

Ironbreakers can't get great weapons. Hand weapon shield only.

Red_Zeke wrote:Ironbreakers can't get great weapons. Hand weapon shield only.

i must be thinking of something else.

what is the dwarf unit with GWs and tons of armor?

Longbeards and Hammerers are both WS 5, T 4, Heavy armor. The former has the option to take great weapons, and the latter is *required* to take them.

Perhaps that's what you're thinking of?

This unit is not stubborn for any reason. If it can be anvil-outflanked by practically anything, especially longbeards or ironbreakers with stacked runes of battle, it's in for a long (or rather, an unpleasantly truncated) day.

zeekill wrote:So I don't know EXACTLY all the details of this unit but I know the big picture.

~25 Warriors
MoT
Shields
FC
Blasted Standard
MoT BSB with Frenzy Banner NO FRENZY BANNER, THIS GUY HAS A 3+ WARD SAVE
MoT Lvl 4 with 3+ Ward Save
Somewhere in there he also has Magic Resistance 2, though that doesn't really affect Dwarfs.


EDIT: THIS UNIT DOES NOT HAVE THE FRENZY BANNER, I WAS MISTAKEN

So how would I deal with this?

If I shoot at it, he takes his 4+ Ward Save and I dont do enough damage, and all his other units (3x 18 Warriors With halberds and MoK) get to me unharmed and smash my face in.

If I ignore it, the unit gets to me and I just can't deal with it. Even 25 Warriors with great weapons in the flank will at best (keeping it realistic) only win combat by 1 or 2.

Red_Zeke wrote:I'm sure he meant that they all had rune of accuracy and some other combo.

i.e. GT #1: Rune of accuracy, rune of penetrating
GT #2: Rune of accuracy, rune of penetrating, rune of burning
GT #3: Rune of accuracy, rune of penetrating x2

And for that matter, you're breaking runic rules yourself. Can't put two master runes on the same item, so your first option is a no go.

The second will still have issues dropping a 3+ ward save sorcerer lord.

That's what I get for being snarky and not paying attention.

Even with a 3+ ward from the sorc, it's not like he's going to be doing great damage back. I dunno, but still warmachines should make the unit pretty bearable by anything.

Can I ask how they're both getting a 3+ ward (the sorc and BSB)

Theres is alot of armour that gives 4+ ward save then an extra +1 from mark of tzeentch.

Organ guns should still be putting the hurt on them -3 armour save so 6 up then the 4+ ward with 2/3 rounds of shooting should wittle them down to an easy size to finish with hammerers etc.

Hea vy armour, 4+ ward
Amulet of 4+ Ward. Easy. Does mean BSB doesnt have a magic banner though.

It doesn't really have to be a magic banner, the Warriors are capable of taking magic banners already. Though in my WoC army I just try to make sure as much as possible is capable of causing Terror (Because it's fun to make the other races armies get screwed by all runing away instead of fighting)

You could feed him congalines of slayers (3 units of 5) each with 4 giant slayers to challenge for 4 player turns each unit (WOC characters have to make challenges and accept challenges)

Repeat with a unit at a time for fun times +1

*Giggles like a schoolgirl*

I assume as the first model's are 'removed' from normal combat, noone else can fight... and even if they can the warriors will have to make all their attacks on the 2nd rank giant slayer only.

Then smash the rest of his army.

Noone else can fight as you arent in base contact with any models, and you cannot direct onto the second rank....

Congalines of slayers would be fun. Doing it for even 2 game turns would let your war machines smash the rest of the army leaving you able to position to flank charge the uber unit and pummel its face in...

The thing you have to remember about WoC characters is that 9 out of 10 times they will be built to demolish enemy characters in a challenge, and they are deadly as it is. If one has the Chaos Runeshield (my General always does) then you loose any magic or runic weapon's abilities and they are just mudane weapons insead. This also screws with Special Characters too, something people normally forget (Many a Teclis has fallen to my Lord's blade not realising his sword of +2 wounding doesn't work against him).

Also, magic can be a real mess for you if you keep it unchecked, mainly Lores of Tzeentch and Nurgle. Watch out for them, they'll smack anything they consider a threat to themselves or another WoC unit, and the Sorcerers are still sturdy in CC too.

Teclis could keep his magic sword and a Chaos Lord is still going to shred him. Seems pretty overkill in that matchup. If I'm going unkillable build lord, I'm happy with most matchups as far as not having wound dealt either way and hoping for static to come in from the flank.

Teclis is a joke in CC. he may do 2-3 wounds, but that does no good when EVERYTHING is wounding on 3+(with the exception of Str2 which is 4+) and he has no saves of any kind.


WoC characters are beasts. even with only defensive equipment from their magic item allotment they are still dangerous. they can take a bunch of mundane weapons which are nasty on their statline.

even the Sorcerors are decent in CC with many of the options the champions have.

Ah, I'm just saying it's so much fun to crush that irritating elf like that, because his ASF means he hits first and my opponent always hopes to at least do some form of damage against my Lord. In earlier games I had a Sorcerer Lord as my General with the shield, so they hoped they would stand a little more chance (which they did not ).

As for Dwarven characters going up against this sheild, I'd say your best bet would be to try and throw enough shooting attacks and warriors at him to whittle his wounds down, my general has never lost a challange to date and I thank this shield among other things.

the Enchanted shield is a definite boon to WoC. for the same points cost as a normal shield, just taken out of the magic allowance, you can get a 2+ armor save for next to nothing. another 65 points(MoT and Talisman) will get you a 3+ ward with 50 points left to spend on the chaos lord.


for dwarves it's probably best to try and shoot the unit to death. at best they can get a 4+ ward against shooting, but that is expensive.

Unfortunately, you have to pay 15 pts for the enchanted shield as it is listed in the WoC book as such, and you have to pay the points in the codex if the item is in both :(

doesn't it have a different effect as its the old enchanted shield.

A combination of FAQ-es might be needed to explain this but basycally, whenever an item exist both in the rulebook and your army book, you use the rules in the BRB with the points from the AB.

Nope, it does the exact same thing it always has. You could take the dragon helm though. +1 armor save and a ward save vs. flaming for the same points cost as a normal shield.

Back OT:

That unit sounds like it's been tailored to be specifically anti-dwarf. Armies with access to any of the BRB lores would see it and magic it to pieces.

Like has been said, your best bet would be to shoot at it with your warmachines and feed it some cannon fodder to keep it as far away from the main fight as you can.