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I've tried searching and it may be completely obvious but when does a unit with Hit and Run initiate the Hit and Run ability...
The USR states at the end of the assault phase, but sweeping advance rolls are not made. Is Hit and Run applied before the morale test at the end of close combat? If not, does the unit with Hit and Run have to pass its Morale test to trigger Hit and Run? If not, does a unit with Fearless and Hit and Run have to take its additional wounds before breaking off?

In both cases the Seraphim would like to use Hit and Run to leave combat:
Example 1) An 8 woman seraphim squad charges 15 daemonettes. The seraphim slay 3 in combat, the daemonettes slay 4 in combat. The seraphim will then lose the combat and possibly break. At this point what happens or what can happen?

Example 2) An 8 woman seraphim squad charges 15 daemonettes. The seraphim slay 5 in combat, the daemonettes slay 2 in combat. The daemonettes will then lose the combat and possibly suffer from fearless wounds. At this point what happens or what can happen?

Thanks for any help/light that can be shed on this.

You resolve the combat completely, including morale tests for either side.

You then can attempt to hit and run. The language about not allowing a sweeping advance is to let you know what the enemy cannot attempt to keep you in combat if you escape.

The Seraphim's Hit and Run is in the WH Codex and not the BRB. Notice the difference between the USR and the rule below. The Seraphim's is after Close Combat and the USR is after the Assault Phase. Reading the Assault Phase Summary, it says fight Close Combat and then you Determine Assault Results. The USR requires an initiative check, while the Seraphim's does not. There is no morale check for the Seraphim in your first example, you declare it and they leave. In the second example, the Daemonettes do not take their fearless wounds, because you left before determing the winner.

Even if you go with Polonius' order of events, at the point where the morale and then initiative test would take place, the initiative test is not required for Seraphim, because it is 'automatically successful', so even if you fail morale you leave. However, in your second example, if the Daemonettes fail morale, you may have a case for making the Daemonettes take their fearless saves before you leave. I just have never played it this was due to my interpretation. Where's Gwar! when you need him.


Hit and Run: Models with this ability may choose to leave close combat. Declare this at
the end of the Close Combat phase. The unit using the Hit & Run ability must be involved
in the combat and will immediately move 3D6" in a straight line in any direction, ignoring
the units they are locked with. This move may not be used to move into contact with enemy
models. The break-off move is automatically successful and is not subject to sweeping
advance. the enemy can consolidate normally, however. A Seraphim squad joined by an
Adepta Sororitas Heroine equipped with a jump pack does not benefit from this rule.

That is the SoB specific ability, not the general one. The general Hit & Run requires an Initiative test before they can break away; it still happens at the end of the assault phase.

The question, although worded generally, is about Seraphim though.

And that is why I tried to separate the two rules. If you just use the USR as RAW, which states it happens at the end of the Assault Phase, you can argue that the attempt cannot even be made until after the initial morale check is passed, because if you fail it and then fail initiative, you are swept before you can even try. If you fail morale and pass initiative, you have fallen back and are no longer 'locked in combat', so the USR is not applicable. I don't believe this is what is intended and I personally would not play it this way, but for the RAW purists, it is the way it reads.

I play Seraphim and I have always taken morale tests before breaking out of combat with Hit and Run.

The rule for the Seraphim quoted above specifies that the Hit and Run takes place at the "end of the Close Combat phase." (assuming that quote was accurate)

If that is the case, why would the respective morale tests not have to be made prior to the Hit and Run move?

It's amazing. It looks like there was an actual rules change in the Seraphim rules.

The Official GW PDF says "Models with this ability may choose to leave close combat. Declare this at the end of the Close Combat phase. ..." The printed version of that codex apparently said "At the end of a round of close combat, ..." and that's not the same thing. The "Close Combat phase" is the "Assault Phase".

If you're using the PDF version of Witch Hunters, then the penalties for losing combat would be inflicted well before any chance to use the special rule.

As for why the "No sweeping advance rolls are made" statement is where it is, who knows? Perhaps it's there to avoid arguments in situations like the following:
* Unit A wins combat against units X and Y. X fails its leadership test and falls back, while Y passes. At the end of the phase, Y uses Hit & Run to leave the combat.
* Now Unit A's player demands that A should get a sweeping advance against X since it's no longer locked in combat.
Not to mention the potential arguments caused by the wording "breaks from combat" and other word choices.

"No Sweeping attacks" is stated because a unit is breaking close combat, and in all other instances this happens a sweeping advance is checked for.

You would totally resolve all combat first under either rule.

Shenra wrote:"No Sweeping attacks" is stated because a unit is breaking close combat, and in all other instances this happens a sweeping advance is checked for.

You would totally resolve all combat first under either rule.

Well, "No Sweeping Advances" is actually stated because in old rules, a unit could perform a sweeping advance, which actually moved them forward 2d6", it wasn't just a check to see if they wiped out the opponent.

Nowadays, there's no reason for this phrase to appear at all.