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Do you get screening from enemy models.

Let me give an example: I'm playing Orkz and so my Boyz have a 6+ armor save. I'm fighting Tyranids and my opponent is screening his Tervigon, Trygon, Hive Tyrant, Hive Guard, and Warriors with Gaunts. Now I know that when I shoot at him he gets a 4+ cover because of the screening Gaunts but do I get a cover save from any shooting of his that is coming from behind the Gaunts.

It seems to me that it would be unfair if I didn't get a cover save but he did. After all, if my own bullets are being blocked by the Gaunts his would to. Warhammer all takes place in one action phase so the Gaunts wouldn't have time to "move" out of the way of friendly shooting.

Thanks for the help Dakka!

Page 51 of the BGB, in regards to the MC's

50% of its body has to be in cover as per page 16, or vehicles.

Gaunts are no where near tall enough to give cover to a trygon.

Warriors get the save, cause they're not MC's and shooting through a unit gives the coversave.

Shooting through his own unit gives your unit a save. page 22.

The rules for cover (page 21 of the rulebook) make no distinction between enemy or friendly troops. The sole exception is for models from the same unit as the firer (page 22, first bullet point).


Bear in mind though that cover relies on actual LOS from the firer... so the fact that an enemy unit gets cover from an intervening obstacle doesn't automatically mean that you get cover in return. It all depends on the actual placement of the models, and what is obscured from the firer's point of view.

Correct insaniak. Little guys would be at a disadvantage against a tank turret etc.

Ok thats what I thought as it seems fair.

Insaniak wrote:
Bear in mind though that cover relies on actual LOS from the firer... so the fact that an enemy unit gets cover from an intervening obstacle doesn't automatically mean that you get cover in return. It all depends on the actual placement of the models, and what is obscured from the firer's point of view.

Yeah I know that. Like if a unit is firing through a window and he can see all of your guy, but you can't see all of him as he is obscured by the wall then he gets a cover save and you don't.

Seriphis wrote:
Gaunts are no where near tall enough to give cover to a trygon.

Ok maybe I've been playing this wrong but I thought if a non-vehicle unit was even partially obscured, like part of its arm was covered, then it counts as being in cover. I thought only vehicles benefit from the 50% covered rule. If what you say is true (and it probably is, although I'm going to consult my rulebook real soon) then my friend has been cheating me. I didn't know MC's use the vehicle rules for cover. He ALWAYS screens his Trygons with gaunts and my fething Lascannons never get through!

Sanguinis wrote:Ok maybe I've been playing this wrong but I thought if a non-vehicle unit was even partially obscured, like part of its arm was covered, then it counts as being in cover. I thought only vehicles benefit from the 50% covered rule. If what you say is true (and it probably is, although I'm going to consult my rulebook real soon) then my friend has been cheating me. I didn't know MC's use the vehicle rules for cover. He ALWAYS screens his Trygons with gaunts and my fething Lascannons never get through!

Yup, you need to have a read of the Monstrous Creature rules. They do indeed need 50% coverage.

The only case where gaunts might be able to give cover to a trygon is if the trygon is behind a hill (40% or more cover), the gaunts were standing on top of it, and someone was shooting the trygon from the very bottom of the other side of the hill.

or he models his gaunts as massive sails.

Aha! I just read it Seriphis thank you!

Ok question answered.

Thanks All!

Sanguinis wrote:Yeah I know that. Like if a unit is firing through a window and he can see all of your guy, but you can't see all of him as he is obscured by the wall then he gets a cover save and you don't.

Actually I find this point confusing because of the example on page 23... which suggests that if less than half of the firing squad can see the target unit, then the target unit gets a cover save.

So...

If I have a Marine with a lascannon firing through a window at a unit which is in the open (from the heavy's perspective), but the rest of the marines squad is hiding behind a wall and can't see properly... does that mean the target unit gets a cover save from the lascannon?

up. Majority rules in 40k. If most of the lascannon unit cant see the enemy, they get a coversave. If there was only one guy with a lascannon, the majority could see the other guys so no coversave. The unit only needs on LOS to shoot at the enemy, but the enemy gets a cover save if majority cant see the enemy.

was that not confusing. I might have confused myself.

SmackCakes wrote:

Sanguinis wrote:Yeah I know that. Like if a unit is firing through a window and he can see all of your guy, but you can't see all of him as he is obscured by the wall then he gets a cover save and you don't.

Actually I find this point confusing because of the example on page 23... which suggests that if less than half of the firing squad can see the target unit, then the target unit gets a cover save.

So...

If I have a Marine with a lascannon firing through a window at a unit which is in the open (from the heavy's perspective), but the rest of the marines squad is hiding behind a wall and can't see properly... does that mean the target unit gets a cover save from the lascannon?

Are the other marine actually firing bolters at the unit? If the only model that is actually firing then it is the only model that you need be concerned w/ for the purposes of LOS. If on the other hand you are firing the las cannon and the 4 other boltguns in the squad then you must check LOS from the Unit as a whole. That is why it is sometimes beneficial to to not have marines fire their bolters if means you can have a clear lascannon shot at an appropriate target.

Thaylen wrote:Are the other marine actually firing bolters at the unit? If the only model that is actually firing then it is the only model that you need be concerned w/ for the purposes of LOS. If on the other hand you are firing the las cannon and the 4 other boltguns in the squad then you must check LOS from the Unit as a whole. That is why it is sometimes beneficial to to not have marines fire their bolters if means you can have a clear lascannon shot at an appropriate target.

Well that certainly makes sense... but is it RAW?

In the case of the Example C at the top of page 23:

We have 5 marines firing (lets pretend all bolters for easiness). 3.3 hits > 1.65 wounds > 1.1 unsaved (5+ cover)

If the rule only applies to firing models and not the whole unit then we could just not fire one of the marines, which would leave the Orks counting as open.

4 marines firing > 2.64 hits > 1.32 wounds > 1.32 unsaved (no cover).

This would actually give us statistically better odds of killing, but is it really allowed?

Bottom of page 16 in the main rule book;

"A Player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers (as some models may have one shot weapons, for example). This must be declared before checking range, as all of the models in the unit fire at the same time."

So, yes you can have certain models not fire in order to deny an opponent a cover save.

I was thinking more specifically about units firing versus firing units, but I see now on page 22 it clearly says "the majority of the firing models that are in range.

That's pretty cool... I bet this will never come up for me to abuse in a real game now :(

I rarely does. The only time I really use this rule is if I combat squad my lascannon guy from the tac squad, I'll then hide the other 4 guys behind a rhino/building and leave only the lascannaon guy out so he can see his targets. The strategy is often useless vs mech as their armor save is often the better than their cover save, and most horde type units are just far too large to effectively keep in cover.

It's highly usable against people who 'screen' with long units.

screening is annoying

Sanguinis wrote:

Seriphis wrote:
Gaunts are no where near tall enough to give cover to a trygon.

Ok maybe I've been playing this wrong but I thought if a non-vehicle unit was even partially obscured, like part of its arm was covered, then it counts as being in cover. I thought only vehicles benefit from the 50% covered rule. If what you say is true (and it probably is, although I'm going to consult my rulebook real soon) then my friend has been cheating me. I didn't know MC's use the vehicle rules for cover. He ALWAYS screens his Trygons with gaunts and my fething Lascannons never get through!

Remember, even being screened with models that are half the MC's height isn't enough for a cover save - the intervening unit needs to cover half of the model.

With very little terrain, an entire Bug army can get a cover save.

1)Put front line of screening gaunts with 1/2 the squad in area terrain in front.

2)Have 3 units of Hive Guard behind them. Hive Guard are much large than the gaunts but are not MCs - so they will get the cover save.

3)Have your trygons, tervigons behind the hive guard. The hive guard are large enough to provide cover to the MCs.

4)You can do the same thing with the Hive Tyrant, attach him to a squad of tyrant guard behind a gaunt screen.

Make sure to take tervigons to dish out the FNP and to keep generating gaunts.

Even if you have to break cover, the guants in the front will still provide cover to the MCs, and you can keep generating more gaunts. The hive guard will destroy most vehicles that get within 30 inches (6 inch move than 24 inch shot) and ignores LOS terrain.

There is a guy in our area that developed this list and its is extremely hard to beat. Nothing can beat it in close combat and very few armies have enough big guns that can blow thru all the cover saves, FNP, and 6 wounds.

LoL .... a hive guard covers up to like .... maybe 1/3rd of a trygons height .... no way youll get a coversave unless hes on a boulder inf ront or something ....

Bottom of page 16 in the main rule book;

"A Player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers (as some models may have one shot weapons, for example). This must be declared before checking range, as all of the models in the unit fire at the same time."

So, yes you can have certain models not fire in order to deny an opponent a cover save.

Don't have the rulebook here but I don't think this is correct. Isn't cover determined from the firing unit's LOS and not just "members of the unit that fire" ?

It is determined by checking LOS for EACH model that is in the firing unit, and you d0o that by checking the LOS for each model that is firing. There is a nice diagram showing the individual LOS for each model.