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Well, let me start by saying I am not 100% sure of any clear rules on how far "Count-As" or WYSIWYG goes concerning alternative models. If anyone could point me to a page or FAQ or anything that would help, it would be appreciated.

That being said, I am looking for opinions on a project I am considering. I love Orks. I want to play Dark Eldar. I don't like the look of most Dark Eldar stuff and would much rather go for modelling and painting Orks. So, what if I did the following:

Pain Boss - Haemonculi
Ork - Wrack
Nob - Grotesque
Warkopta - Raider
Fighta-Bomba - Voidraven
Converted Lootas - Trueborn

Most seem reasonable to me, but the last one is the biggest issue. Would folks allow it? Would you think most tournaments would allow it? Everything would be WYSIWYG, obviously, but it would be Orks with the proper equipment, not Dark Eldar.

Thougths? Comments?

There are no actual rules for using anything other than the official, applicable Games Workshop model. For that matter, there are no rule rules covering that, either... the rules just tell us that 'Citadel Miniatures' are used to play the game, and leave the rest up to us, with the general assumption being that you are supposed to use the correct model as supplied by GW.


For casual gaming, go for broke. So long as your army is easy for your opponent to tell what is what, you're usually fine to get creative.

For tournaments, it would come down to the specific modelling requirements for the event you're wanting to enter.

I don't mind "counts as" for a few different things, but on a scale like this it would be very frustrating to play against an army like this.

An opponent would be having to consistantly ask what is what, etc. I think counts as works better for one off models, or models that don't have codexs.

In all honesty I think in a friendly game 99% of the people, including myself, would have no problem with what your doing.

Now tournaments are a whole other ballgame. I think if everything is based correctly then you would be okay. An example would be your "pain boss" as long as he is on the small base like a Haemonculi you would be okay. The Fighta-Bomba is also okay as the Voidraven since there is no official Voidraven model by GW (no Forge World doesn't count) you could use a crouching Guardsman as your Voidraven and it would be legal. The only model I think a tournament would have an issue with is the Warkopta as a raider. Because in the current ruleset LoS and Range are measured from the hull of a vehicle, if you are using a vehicle you need to have the right model to represent it or else it could be considered modelling for advantage. An example of that would be me considering a Land Raider as a Ravager. I could then measure Range from the very tip of the Assault Cannon or if I was really bad put Dark Lances on the very edge of the model. Would you also have extended range to me? Yes, But I would have several more inches than the Ravager model actually allows.

All in all, your gonna have to ask your TO what they think of the idea. Go to your FLGS and ask the person who is in charge of the tournaments what they think.

Good luck with your modelling! It sounds like a really awesome idea!

As long as it's crystal clear what everything is, then go for it. Rules wise this falls under "RAW, no, but everyone customizes everything so it doesn't matter as long as you're not being a dick."

Check out http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271328.page for a great example of an Ork army counts-as-ing another army. As you can see, everything is very clear and distinguishable. So when it comes right down to it, as long as you're not frustrating your opponent, you're golden.

Like that necron army, I'd not be as concerned with what counts as what in the fluff, and more how to make them visually match. Make the warrior models orks carrying ork-y splinter rifles. Make the nobz look grotesque-ish. The key will be how the models visually map back to their DE equivalents.

I do think you'll have a tough time with lootas though. Probably better off converting just more ork boyz.

Xca|iber wrote:As long as it's crystal clear what everything is, then go for it. Rules wise this falls under "RAW, no, but everyone customizes everything so it doesn't matter as long as you're not being a dick."

Check out http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271328.page for a great example of an Ork army counts-as-ing another army. As you can see, everything is very clear and distinguishable. So when it comes right down to it, as long as you're not frustrating your opponent, you're golden.

That Ork-ron army is excellent! If you plan on doing that for a Dark Ork-dar army I'd say no tournament would have issue with it. If you just took your green orks and said "Look, greenskin eldar!" it would not be received well. But if you came up with a way to make boyz or whatever into each different unit in the codex then I say have fun! You are using GW models and like was said previously, there should be no confusion. So Dark Ork-dar Warriors should look different than Wyches or Wracks or whatever.

Homer

(off topic) OH MY GODS, INSANIAKS AVATAR BLINKED!!!??!!

Yea, I have been laboring over the army and working over fun and competitive lists as well as a plethora of fluff. Right now, it shouldn't be too hard.

I want to do a Haemonculi list, which means Wracks and Grotesques, as well as other vehicles. That means the average T4 Boy fits great for a Wrack and with two CCW, that should be pretty easy to figure out. The Grotesques will most likely be Nobz on medium bases with fiddly bits to make them look tough and killy.

Anyhow, from what I can tell, this should be just fine. I tend to do only local tournaments and I have cleared it with the TO, as well as my fellow players. So, right now I am just mulling over the details.

Just another side note for this idea - T3 models.

I am seriously not happy with T4 Orks representing T3 Trueborn, so what should I do for those?

One Grot on a Squig with a Count-as Blasta? Or...?

I am open to ideas. Thoughts?

Nulipuli2 wrote:(off topic) OH MY GODS, INSANIAKS AVATAR BLINKED!!!??!!

Nulipuli, everything is going to be fine. You're very high right now. You will probably be that way for about five more hours. Try taking some vitamin B complex, vitamin C complex.. if you have a beer, go ahead and drink it ... Just remember you're a living organism on this planet, and you're very safe. You've just taken a heavy drug. Relax, stay inside and listen to some music, Okay? Do you have any Allman Brothers?
--President Jimmy Carter (Dan Aykroyd)



=---------------=
MNOP - I've thought about this myself, using my eldar, just to get to ry out the DE 'dex. A Post-It, toothpick, and there ya go. Have one model carry the 'banner' with the proper label and heck, maybe a TO at an RTT will let it fly as the silly book *just* came out.