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Tyranid Prime: Regeneration, 2x Bonesword
Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Onslaught

2x Hive Guard
3x hive Guard
3x Hive Guard

Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Onslaught
Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants

Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

1970 points (what do I do with the extra 30?)

The Tervigons will generally cast Onslaught o nthe T-Fexes so they can keep up with the rest of the army while they shoot. I play the T-Fexes aggressively as they're one of the few models big enough to get cover onto my Tervigons without much of an issue. I know most poeple tend to hate on them but I think it is really important to be able to pressure AV14 early on and they're pretty damn good at damaging annoying AV12 things like Vendettas quickly as well. I've been pretty back and forth on T-Fex vs. Trygon lately, I'm not sure which is the better call for an army like this. The Prime feels out of place as it stands. I have him in there as ablative wounds for a Tervigon and CC backup for my big guys since they aren't the best in close combat. I'm more or less relying on waves of Gaunts to do the lionshare of my killing when it comes to it. Enough upergaunts can drag down almost anything though. I would really love to find the points to fit in a Tyrant/Swarmlord if possible as I think Preferred Enemy is pretty important in a lot of scenarios and I wouldn't mind having an ultra solid CC unit to help fill gaps.

Meh not my kind of list I'm afriad, once the Terivgons shut down you're left with loads of small easily disposable Gant units. I found this when I used to run them.

A lot better choices than mass Tervigon spam TBH.

Like what? This is an honest question, I would really like to find a list that fits my style and can compete at the top tables.

I don't particularly like the list I posted above, and I'm very open to completely changing directions with it.

Well what units you like in the Tyranid codex?

Not blowing my own horn, but this is my list if any help. I've recently done some changes to it. You can use it as a base if any help? It's the Triple Trygon list, 2k points on the nose.

Tyranids "Hive Fleet Krakken" - 2,000 points

HQ

Hive Tyrant bonesword & lashwhip, devourers, old adversary
Tyrant Guard
Tyranid Prime bonesword, lashwhip & deathspitter

Elite

2 x Hive Guard
2 x Hive Guard
3 x Zoanthropes

Troops

4 x Warriors rending claws, deathspitters & toxin sacs
24 x Termagants fleshborers
20 x Hormagaunts toxin sacs
20 x Hormagaunts toxin sacs

Heavy Support

Trygon adrenal glands
Trygon adrenal glands
Trygon adrenal glands

I like the Tyrant + Prime thing, it seems really powerful. 3 Trygons is also something I really like. for me it tends to come down to 3 Trygons or 2 T-Fexes in the HS spot. I also like the lack of Tervigons but I'm having a very hard time not taking any because they seem so powerful as troops choices. I've been playing around with this a lot for the past couple of hours and I think I'm getting closer to something I like. I'm nots ure about not having a Tyrant or Swarmlord in this version (Preferred Enemy seems good and I would like a 4th CC powerhouse to supplement the Trygons). Here is a revised list, what do you think?

Tyranid Prime: Lash Whip/Bonesword, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
Tyranid Prime: 2x Bonesword, Scything Talons, Toxin sacs

6x Ymgarl Genestealers
3x Hive guard
3x Hive guard

16x Genestealers
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
Tervigon: Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Catalyst
Tervigon: Toxin sacs, Adrenal Glands, Catalyst

Trygon: Adrenal Glands
Trygon: Adrenal Glands
Trygon: Adrenal Glands

Primes go with Tervigons to help make sure they get cover and protect them from assaults. In situations where I have to deal with nasty multiple wound models the Primes can team up on them and do serious damage with the dual Boneswords + I1 from the Lash Whip on the other one. I'm not sure if I'd rather have a Tyrant + Guard instead though, or if I could find room maybe Swarmlord + Guard. I could make room for either one by dropping the Primes and a Hive Guard or two. The regular Genestealers are there to force my opponent into a choice. I can give them FNP and force him to dedicate a decent amount of fire to removing them as a threat, or they can get in there and do solid damage. They're a turn 2 charge reliably and with decent run rolls the Trygons can also hit with them (though realistically the Trygons hit turn 3). I'm not sure if I'm wasting a ton of points on the Stealers or not because I'm not sure that one unit of them will have the impact I want them to hitting so early, they feel a bit lonely as the only turn 2 charge (they're bolstered by the Ymgarls if they show up on turn 2).

Why do you want Tyrannofexes for? They're over priced monsters with 2+ save and you need to pay extra for the gun. I think they need 4+ to hit anyway, sure will make a mess against average armour but against Land Raiders etc still need 5+ to pen. I'd drop them and go Hive Guard and use the Trygons S7 7 attacks with re-rolls against the tough armour.

Anyway, list feedback....why you got two Primes for? You only need one HQ and neither are giving any benefits to units/army as no Warriors, take one only.

Genestealers need toxin sacs.

The T-Fexes in the original list are there to threaten armor early on. They get Onslaught and run/shoot so I can play them aggressively. The original list was a pretty standard version of the Gaunt Farm thing. Basically that army is so terrified of transports and tank shocks that it needs to stop armor of all types as quick as possible, thus the T-Fexes. They're also big goofy MCs in close combat and I'm not afraid to get them stuck in late in the game. The biggest thing with that list though is getting the enemy out of its vehicles so the Gaunts can kill them. If they don't get out, I can't win. Land Raiders can gut the army and let whatever is inside of them tear the list to pieces by killing my Tervigons quickly. They're flat out terrifying to a Gaunt Farm army.

When the list with the 2 Primes was written I was forgetting that they can't join one model units so the idea was going to be to attach them to the Tervigons. Clearly I'm not allowed to do that though, so the list has changed again. Now it looks like:

Tyranid Prime: Lash Whip/Bonesword, Scything Talons, Regeneration, Toxin Sacs
Tyranid Prime: 2x Bonesword, Scything Talons, Regeneration, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands

2x Hive Guard
2x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard

Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
10x Termagaunts
10x Termagaunts

20x Gargoyles: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

Trygon: Adrenal Glands
Trygon: Adrenal Glands
2x Carnifex: Adrenal Glands

I can trade a Hive Guard, Adrenal Glands on the Fexes and Trygons, and Regen on the 2x Bonesword Prime to get a unit of 3 Raveners with Rending Claws as well. I'm not sure which is the better choice. Adrenal Glands on the Carnifexes makes them go simultaneous with things like Thunderwolves/Bloodcrushers at str10 on the charge (instant kill Thunderwolves). This seems like it makes them really strong.

Primes join Fexes, Gargoyles go get Long Fangs and stuff like that, Trygons bring early pressure, HG shoot stuff, Tervigons make babies when needed.

I feel like I'm getting closer here. I know you don't like the Tervigons, but what do you think of the newest version of the list? I feel like I'm really finding my way to saturating the table with enough threats to cause most armies problems for the 2-3 turns they get to shoot stuff while I hoof it across the table towards them.

Thank you for continuing to reply to this thread, you're really helping a lot. You're making me think outside of my normal box and consider new things, bringing me another dimension to list building.

Why do you need to run and shoot with a 48" rupture cannon? You should always be ni range. It's Hive Guard you need to onslaught and run and shoot

I really cannot stand the Gant farm list. So boring to play with, just same old models popping out and then once burnt out you're in trouble and lets face it around 11 Termagants per 3D6 roll aren't scary.

Don't need toxin sacs on Primes, adrenal glands are ok S6 goodness

Trygon is better than Carnifex in close combat so trade it for one of those.

Raveners are pretty cool. Don't expect Gargoyles to tie up Long Fangs which are in terrain, usually, Gargoyles don't have frags.

I think the list is better just needs another Trygon instead of the two Carnifexes and I'd ditch a Prime and get a unit of Warriors with deathspitters for so good shootyness.

No worries Caffran, glad to be a help. Do me a favour and check out my blog www.imperiusdominatus.com if you haven't already got posts on there of Tyranids which might be helpful, and of course you can comment on there and ask me things direct.

Take a Hive Tyrant instead of a Warrior Prime. Warrior Primes are best suited for small games. Take a Lash Whip + Bonesword on it.

Drop some Tervigons for more Termagaunts, or prehaps some Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs.

3 Trygons.......Hmm. The Tyrannofex is a good investment.

Prehaps you should invest in a Carnifex with Crushing Claws and Adrenal Glands. For maximum brown-trousers factor, stick it in a Mycetic Spore.

Don't tool Warriors up for close combat- they should be there for fire support.

Caffran9 wrote:Tyranid Prime: Regeneration, 2x Bonesword
Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Onslaught

2x Hive Guard
3x hive Guard
3x Hive Guard

Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Onslaught
Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
Tervigon: Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
10x Termagants

Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

1970 points (what do I do with the extra 30?)

The Tervigons will generally cast Onslaught o nthe T-Fexes so they can keep up with the rest of the army while they shoot. I play the T-Fexes aggressively as they're one of the few models big enough to get cover onto my Tervigons without much of an issue. I know most poeple tend to hate on them but I think it is really important to be able to pressure AV14 early on and they're pretty damn good at damaging annoying AV12 things like Vendettas quickly as well. I've been pretty back and forth on T-Fex vs. Trygon lately, I'm not sure which is the better call for an army like this. The Prime feels out of place as it stands. I have him in there as ablative wounds for a Tervigon and CC backup for my big guys since they aren't the best in close combat. I'm more or less relying on waves of Gaunts to do the lionshare of my killing when it comes to it. Enough upergaunts can drag down almost anything though. I would really love to find the points to fit in a Tyrant/Swarmlord if possible as I think Preferred Enemy is pretty important in a lot of scenarios and I wouldn't mind having an ultra solid CC unit to help fill gaps.

I really liked where your first list was going and I think your second list was also a good step forward but I think combining some of the aspects of both is where you'll find the sweet spot.

My suggestion would be

HQ
Tyranid prime x2 - Lash/Bone, Regen, Adrenal

Elite
Hive Guard x2

Hive Guard x2

Hive Guard x3

Troops
Termigants x10

Termigants x10

Tervigon - Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst, Onslaught

Tervigon - Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst, Onslaught

Heavy
Carnifex x2 - Adrenal, T/L Devourers

Tyrannofex - Rupture

Tyrannofex - Rupture

Comes out exactly 2000 and with the 2 primes attached to the carnies you can get cover from terrain or hive guard who will get their cover from gants or something else. The carnie's let you ID twolf cav on the charge, throw out some decent shooting and are no joke in CC when getting charged.

I like tyrannofexes, they fill a gap in the tyranid army that nothing else CAN fill and as far as them being overpriced I will disagree. They may not kill a lot with their rupture cannon but when you're shaking and stunning/immobilizing land raiders or at least predators I think they're worth their weight in gold.

Take it as you will though.

Squigsquasher wrote:Take a Hive Tyrant instead of a Warrior Prime. Warrior Primes are best suited for small games. Take a Lash Whip + Bonesword on it.

Drop some Tervigons for more Termagaunts, or prehaps some Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs.

3 Trygons.......Hmm. The Tyrannofex is a good investment.

Prehaps you should invest in a Carnifex with Crushing Claws and Adrenal Glands. For maximum brown-trousers factor, stick it in a Mycetic Spore.

Don't tool Warriors up for close combat- they should be there for fire support.

Suggestiing to someone to take a Carnifex with claws, glands and in a Pod is the worst suggestion ever. Period. Crushing claws ALWAYS strike at I1 regardless off modifiers so the initiative boost is wasted and you don't need the extra strength. And Carnifex cannot assault from a Pod so will get plasma'd to death when it drops in; awesome!

The Adrenal Glands are there for the extra strength-Suppose someone takes a Monolith. Living Metal rule negates the bonuses of Monstrous Creature, so Carnifex can only penetrate on 6+. With Adrenal Glands, it can penetrate on 5+. And you don't Deep Strike the pod right next to the enemy-you deep strike it out of harms way, but in a position that is inconvinient to the enemy. The D3 extra attacks are well worth the Initiative penalty, and besides, one of the things about Carnifexes is they produce a real dilemna-if the enemy shoots at it, he'll need to use most of his firepower to bring it down, and therefore leave the rest of the swarm unmolested. If he ignores it....He's doomed.

I know what a Monolith is and there's no point taking that upgrade because of a "just in case" scenario. You want it if it does happen. Anyway, penetrating on a 5+ still isn't that good. Best way to deal with Monoliths is ignore them and go for the phase out since the opponent wasted points on a large model which doesn't contribute to the phase out limit.

If that position is inconvinient for the enemy then guess what the enemy is going to do, kill it. Won't need much fire power to bring down a 4 wound T6 monstrous creature. Plasma guns will take it out without any worries. Never deep strike Carnifexes unless got double devourers, now you're talking.

Interesting with the T-Fexes + Carnifexes. I'm nots ure if it really fits together though. For me you need to do one of two things to destabilize the strategy with the Land Raiders and such: 1. Threaten them from Range or 2. Bring pressure and force them to make a bad choice. with the Trygons/Gargoyles/maybe Raveners I have a lot of fast moving threats that can do solid damage quickly to most of the opposing army. That Land Raider suddenly might think about protecting its lines instead of charging off into the middle of my army. With the Carnifexes/Primes I can handle a unit of Terminators a fair bit better as well since theyre going to bring so many attacks to bear on the unit. They'll get a Tervigon sometimes, but I'll get their Land Raider + Terminators. the Carnifexes/Primes unit is really like a bodyguard for the softer center of the army. It is realy good at killing deathstars. Things like Termies can be dragged down by Gaunts/Gargoyles (weight of attacks) as well. The key part of dealing with stuff like that is to try and limit what it can hit through supporting your units and forcing difficult choices upon the opposing player.

I love the T-Fexes, but I fee like with the faster elements of the army and the super hard hitting nature of the Trygons/Carnifexes/Primes I'll be pressuring my opponent enough to put the Land Raiders/Termies into difficult positions.

Maybe I'm wrong here though, and I'll test the T-Fexes as well as I can see the idea with them. The Trygons just feel like a more consistent and resilient form of fast pressure.

And no, I can't see myself ever messing with a podding Carnifex. It feels like free points to the enemy.

I'm wondering about Warriors. I've been looking at them and they just dont seem to actually do a whole lot. They get some saucy high volume of fire weapons which are pretty cool, but they're BS3 and the army feels inherently good at killing hordes already thanks to MCs and uber gaunt production. Mercer I know you've used the Warriors a lot, how are you using them to make them effective and have they had a huge impact for you?

How can Carnifexes and Primes be good at killing Assault Terminators? Terminators will probably make the saves while Prime will be smashed and Carnifex dead :( For assault you want a Trygon, 18" assault range. You want assault Fexes then go double scything talons, adrenal glands and bio plasma at least then you can re-roll to hit you're I4 on the charge and can blast some plasma in first - very nasty!

Though, you want assault monster than it's a Trgyon. It's faster, more attacks, re-rolls to hit, more wounds and better initiative simply be it's just a better assault monster and blows the Carnifex out the water. Only thing the Fex can do better is be a gun monster.

Warriors provide mid field synapse and objective taking, that's it. I use claws and toxin sacs on mine just in case of assault, which they cause some serious damage but other times can be just meh. But, with a Prime they're a serious more threat, rending claws and toxin sacs are optional I'd say but deathspitters I'd take more than anything.

They get 20 attacks (10 of which hit on 4s but reroll all missed hits, 10 of which hit on 3s and reroll all wounds) and strike before the Thunder Hammers. they pile wounds onto the unit pretty hard and should kill a few Termies, which only leads to a few return attacks that shouldn't end up killing an entire model. It isn't an ideal situation, but the unit should win the combat. the dual Bonesword guy can manhandle any characters that might be involved as well.

Obviously I'd much rather swamp them with Gaunts if I'm dealing with Terminators. Against the overwhelming maojrity of Deathstars otherwise though, the Carnifex unit will just tear them apart. Units of Nobs (wihch are generally a really big problem for Tyranids) even struggle to deal with the sheer weight of instant-death causing attacks the unit throws out.

Ehmm.. maybe I'm the black sheep around and maybe (thanks god.. ) we don't have a lot of Termies spam in here but I alwais follow a simple and basic rule.. I shoot to the Terms and I assault everything else.. It works for me.

Mercer I think I like the OPs idea for using the carnifexes to kill death stars. They are better than a trygon in some ways ie insta kill T 4s and T 5s with adrenals also, they get cover with the primes attached, however, I have never gotten a cover save with my trygons consistently.

Toban wrote:Ehmm.. maybe I'm the black sheep around and maybe (thanks god.. ) we don't have a lot of Termies spam in here but I alwais follow a simple and basic rule.. I shoot to the Terms and I assault everything else.. It works for me.

There really aren't many guns in my army to be shooting things with... so that doesn't work for me. I need to tarpit them down and then slowly run them over through weight of numbers... which seems subpar.

And yes the idea behind the Carnifex/Prime unit is that str10 demolishes just about everything it touches, including the maojrity of deathstar units. Str10 makes most scary units cry (Nobs, Thunderwolves, etc). Maybe not as amazing against Termies but still they'll do damage with their wild 20 attacks getting plenty of rerolled hits or wounds thanks to their abilities. I have Gaunts for eating Terminators though

Riffing on the original list type:

Prime w/ lash & sword
Prime w/ lash & sword, toxin sacs (for wound allocation)

2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard

14 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon w/ toxin, adrenal, catalyst
Tervigon w/ toxin, adrenal, catalyst

20 Gargoyles w/ toxin, adrenal

2 Carnifexes
Tyrannofex w/ rupture cannon
Tyrannofex w/ rupture cannon

It's from memory, so points might not be perfect.

That's 50 T6 wounds (including Primes - thanks majority toughness rules). Carnifex crew can get cover from anything, t-fexes can get cover from carnifexes, tervigons can get cover from t-fexes. Hive guard can hide somewhere in the ball of carnifex chassis. Two units/turn have FnP. Good luck killing it.

Oh, and I wouldn't worry too much about (walking/biking) deathstars when you have tervigons. It's not too hard to block them with free gaunts.

Hmmm I'd have to say That your Fex's are unneeded and Tyrgons are better as they punch just about anything and are cheaper!
As for 2 primes... umm, I would personaly just grab a tyrant for that xeno tactica
or a Swarmlord!! he's a monster!

I got this list if you like it?
Wins quite alot of games

My list for 2000points is

HQ: Swarm Lord with 2 guards (guards have whips)
Tyranid Prime (Pair of Swords, Toxin sacs, scything Talons)
Troops: 10 Devilgaunts
10 Devilgaunts
I Tervigon with (Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Toxin sacs, Catalyst)
I Tervigon with (Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Toxin sacs, Catalyst)
5 Warriors (Pair of Swords, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, scything talons) these will outflank with Prime
Elites: 3 Thropes
Doom in spore
10 Ymgarls
Fast Attack: none

Heavy Support: Trygon

Cjc1223 wrote:Mercer I think I like the OPs idea for using the carnifexes to kill death stars. They are better than a trygon in some ways ie insta kill T 4s and T 5s with adrenals also, they get cover with the primes attached, however, I have never gotten a cover save with my trygons consistently.

I don't expect to get a cover with a Trygon, it's just a fact Trygons are better in combat. Do do that funky trick is costing 170 per Carnifex (plus any upgrades) plus 80 points for the Prime (plus upgrades) that's 420 points - almmost a quarter of this force invested into a single unit which isn't that fast getting to do it's job, just a counter unit to other units (my Marines don't have Terminators so what are the Fexes going to do then?) and will take damage quickly thanks to the wrong weapons - bad times :(

Units like Thunderwolves and Nobs are very large problems for Tyranids. The Carnifexes demolish them if (when) they get to charge them. It isn't even close in the outcome of that combat. They solve a problem that pretty much the entire Tyranid army can't deal with (aside from Swarmlord really).

Trygons are absolutely amazing in close combat, but they aren't great against everything. The Fexes are good against the things that Trygons struggle with (av13/14, big multiwound model units, high T models, etc). They compliment each other pretty well because they fill in the gaps for each other.

Caffran is quite right, when your enemy has troops, chomp em down with the mighty Tyrgon, when they have a can wall that looks like a fortress, then the Carnifex is the battering ram.

I will put my faith in a 40tonne Block of muscle Carnifex to take down that monolith rather than the 40tonne Meat Grinder Trygon.