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Hi All

My flgs is having a series of games and there are additional points up for grabs if you meet certain criteria, e.g. written list, painted army and so on. One of the the criteria is your army must be WYSIWYG.

Now the in the first games you are limited to the battleforce boxset for your chosen side, so as guard i'm taking vets. Now i don't really use vets that much, much more of a blob guy, so none of my models have the any of the doctorines modelled on them.

So i came up with the idea of representing the doctorines with counters, so my question is would you allow that as WYSIWYG?

The short answer is as long as there is some discernable way to tell what unit is what, casual opponents at your local store should allow it - especially if you're representing the actual army you're playing with.

If you're at a tourney, 99% of your things would need to be modeled correctly.

TBH i'm fully expecting people to say they don't count, which is cool I'll just have to cope without the doctorine.

I always try to make my stuff WYSIWYG but i've never played in a situation where you've had to have it, so i'm not 100% sure of where the line is.

For instance Catachans all wear vests but apparently are whearing flak armor, how's that WYSIWYG, but i'd allow it.

Melta bombs/demolition charges, do they need to be modelled or will grenades count?

Usually little upgrades aren't that big a deal. Now, when your entire army is a big list of proxies, that gets pretty irritating in a tourney setting. In a friendly game I probably wouldn't care much.

I think really it all depends on your organizer on this matter. The biggest problem however, is the fact that you are limited to the battleforce box. As this prevents you from technically converting anything up, but again ask the person running it what they would say on the matter.

As for counters, they wouldn't be WYSIWYG in my opinion. An example I've seen before a squad of cadian guard in a catachan army, that's good enough for carapace armor to me since you can easily tell the difference and they look like they have heavier armor than your "grunts".

I doubt counters would be WYSIWG, but it shouldn't be too hard to get your dudes there.
Demolitions: A bit of greenstuff should make passable meltabombs, and some sprue + meltabombs should get you a demo charge
Carpace: Shields? Differently painted armor?
Camo Cloaks: Either sculpt cloaks or paint them camo

Usually little upgrades aren't that big a deal. Now, when your entire army is a big list of proxies, that gets pretty irritating in a tourney setting. In a friendly game I probably wouldn't care much.

See this is pretty much what I thought, but the problem i've run into is people definition of what a "little upgrade". I especially have issues with bits of kit that there are no models for or don't come in any of the kits.

As for counters, they wouldn't be WYSIWYG in my opinion. An example I've seen before a squad of cadian guard in a catachan army, that's good enough for carapace armor to me since you can easily tell the difference and they look like they have heavier armor than your "grunts".

Thanks for the opinion, that kind of what i'm after because as is to be expected i'm a little biases on the subject. I play cadians so can't use that idea but its a good one.

I doubt counters would be WYSIWG, but it shouldn't be too hard to get your dudes there.
Demolitions: A bit of greenstuff should make passable meltabombs, and some sprue + meltabombs should get you a demo charge
Carpace: Shields? Differently painted armor?
Camo Cloaks: Either sculpt cloaks or paint them camo

Thanks for posting, it's not really a matter of how hard it would to be to get my guys there, even though my greenstuff skills are questionable, it's more a case of me not wanting to modify a bunch of my troops with an upgrade that I wouldn't normally bother with.

I thought the counters might be a nice work around, but i'm getting the impression that was wishful thinking. It not a big deal its only 5 points for WSIWYG adn I doudt i'm even going to place so don't think 5 points will make much of a difference.

Bit off topic but any of you know of any kits I can get for cloaks? i'm slightly better at kitbashing than i am greenstuffing.

SpankHammer III wrote:

Bit off topic but any of you know of any kits I can get for cloaks? i'm slightly better at kitbashing than i am greenstuffing.

Only two cloaks I'm aware of are the singular one in the CCS kit and the set of them in the SM Scout with sniper rifle kit. That's kind of what I call dimishing returns, but if you're after meltas for all those vets...

Also, the CCS kit cloak, in the immortal words of Ailaros, "looks like someone stapled fabric to his back".

Personally, I think you should make them Ghille suits using gauze. I think we have a tutorial for it in the P&M tutorials section. Looked like it would make painting easy also.

thanks man i'll have a look for it.

I'm sure someone told me one of the elf fantasy kits had cloaks that fit guard.

I think counters is a perfect way to model doctrines on the unit. They might very well be something the unit totes along with them. The key to remember is that your opponent should not be confused.

Armour: if all squads have them, no issue. If some do and some don't then a different color would be good or maybe a marker with a crate of vests on it.

Camo Cloaks/Snare Mines: a counter with some radio looking gear and an antenna would serve.

Demo: a counter representing the demo charge keyed to one model in the squad, so you know which one is carrying it.

On the model or with the squad, people appreciate going to some kind of trouble to represent options.

Homer

SpankHammer III wrote:Melta bombs/demolition charges, do they need to be modelled or will grenades count?

Demo charges should definitely be modelled - that's a pretty major weapon to be represented by a frag grenade.

ETA, I think you need to have a chat with the organiser. If you're limited to the contents of the battleforce box and you have to be WYSIWYG then I would take that to mean he doesn't want you to have meltabombs, demo charges, carapace armour, etc.

Homer S

I think i love you mainly because you agree with me.

I've made two counter i've represented the grenadiers Doctorine (carapace) with pair of grenades, a grenade launcher and an helmet to represent the armor, plus it say grenadiers on the rim.

Forward sentries i modelled a tripwire with grenades attached and put a rolled up camo cloak on it, again says what it is on the rim.

Demo charges should definitely be modelled - that's a pretty major weapon to be represented by a frag grenade

To be honest I agree with you but again i thought about using a counter for like homer s suggested.



Another question I've got a couple of kit bashed models which I usually say "counts as" to be properly compliant with WYSIWYG do you have to use the actual models e.g. if I want to use Al'rahem I have to but the Al'rahem model?

Sounds like a pretty rough series to enter as IG, or at least the first game. The battleforces are in no way balanced against each other, and several battleforces include 2-3x the points of other ones. The IG battleforce for example gives you barely 500 points, and thats if you spam unnecessary gear. The CSM battleforce can be nearly 700 points and I'm sure others are even worse one way or the other.

In terms of WYSIWYG the best thing to do is talk with the organizer and your opponents before the series, and especially before the game. If you are upfront about what you have on what, almost every opponent will not mind.

SpankHammer III wrote:
Another question I've got a couple of kit bashed models which I usually say "counts as" to be properly compliant with WYSIWYG do you have to use the actual models e.g. if I want to use Al'rahem I have to but the Al'rahem model?

No you don't have to use the actual models. So long as you put a model out there with the proper wargear on it, and you tell your opponent before the game you can play it as that model. Most tournaments I've been to even follow that rule, so long as you can clearly see what it is.

SpankHammer III wrote:
I've made two counter i've represented the grenadiers Doctorine (carapace) with pair of grenades, a grenade launcher and an helmet to represent the armor, plus it say grenadiers on the rim.

Forward sentries i modelled a tripwire with grenades attached and put a rolled up camo cloak on it, again says what it is on the rim.

Really something like that might be alright with WYSIWYG, depends on the person running it. Though when I use my guard (which are mostly cadians, with a few catachan I picked up from someone who was getting out of the hobby and wanted the tanks) I use a squad of Catachan to represent the forward sentries doctrine with their light armor. I use Kasrkin models to represent grenadiers when I play them. As for demolitions, I use regular cadians, and modelled a satchel charge using spare bits (namely a backpack from a heavy weapons team with the grenades and knife filed off and the top of an auspex glued to the side and a few fine wires glued from the antenna things on the auspex to the pack) on the one that has the demo charge.

I know the kasrkin models don't come in the battleforce box, but you are using them only as veterans so they should work.

Why don't you cut out the speculation and ask the tourney organizers?

Lone Dragoon thanks for the tips. Glad to hear I can use my own kit bashed models, spent a lot of time on some of them. Haven't got any karskins however.

ClosetRoller - apart from that being well too easy, I have. It's my local Games workshop that's running it, the black shirt hasn't been in so haven't asked him but I asked the two other guys one said counters might be OK and one said that he didn't think I'd even need them. However the black shirt is a bit more of a stickler than the others and at least one guy who was in the store at the time said he would count counters as WYSIWYG.