Hive Tyrant Leech Essence?

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**mercer**

Been having a careful read of the rules about this power.

It says the Tyrant gains every wound back for each wound INFLICTED - key word is inflicted, inflicted means give or apply when looking at a thesaurus.

Looking in the rule book you roll to hit and then to wound, for each wound RECEIVED that model then takes a armour save. On p20 it says roll a D6 for each wound the model has suffered and then compare to the armour save.

The powers rule, as mentioned, says inflicted, which means each wound the enemy models got the Tyrant gets wounds back - not unsaved wounds. The rule says nothing about unsaved wounds (it is ap2 anyway but obivously cover applies), just wonuds which have been inflicted, wounds which have been applied to the model.

I brought this up as I asked this question before ages ago and a few folk said it's after armour saves, though the rules do not mention failed armoured saves at all and clearly says wounds inflicted - when you roll to save, you roll for how many wounds have been inflicted on your unit.

Whatcha think?

**Gwar!**

mercer wrote:Been having a careful read of the rules about this power.

It says the Tyrant gains every wound back for each wound INFLICTED - key word is inflicted, inflicted means give or apply when looking at a thesaurus.

Looking in the rule book you roll to hit and then to wound, for each wound RECEIVED that model then takes a armour save. On p20 it says roll a D6 for each wound the model has suffered and then compare to the armour save.

The powers rule, as mentioned, says inflicted, which means each wound the enemy models got the Tyrant gets wounds back - not unsaved wounds. The rule says nothing about unsaved wounds (it is ap2 anyway but obivously cover applies), just wonuds which have been inflicted, wounds which have been applied to the model.

I brought this up as I asked this question before ages ago and a few folk said it's after armour saves, though the rules do not mention failed armoured saves at all and clearly says wounds inflicted - when you roll to save, you roll for how many wounds have been inflicted on your unit.

Whatcha think?

No. A wound is not inflicted until the save has been failed. If it had been, then a model with 1 wound who has to take 2 armour saves would be dead, even if he passed them.

**calypso2ts**

Good question on this one, the wording is a bit vague overall. In the context of 'inflicting' wounds I believe the term is used several times in the BRB as well.

Generally, inflicting a wound means a model actually taking a wound after all saves have been applied. I will try to find a good reference for this when I get home.

**Grakmar**

I'll agree with Gwar from a RAI perspective as well. There's almost nothing in the game that actually cares about your "to wound" roll results before saves are applied (I actually can't think of anything, but left "almost" just in case).

GW really needs to come up with a new term for the roll you perform after to-hit. Calling them "wounds" is just too confusing since they really aren't wounds until after saves are taken.

**mercer**

Gwar! wrote:
mercer wrote:Been having a careful read of the rules about this power.

It says the Tyrant gains every wound back for each wound INFLICTED - key word is inflicted, inflicted means give or apply when looking at a thesaurus.

Looking in the rule book you roll to hit and then to wound, for each wound RECEIVED that model then takes a armour save. On p20 it says roll a D6 for each wound the model has suffered and then compare to the armour save.

The powers rule, as mentioned, says inflicted, which means each wound the enemy models got the Tyrant gets wounds back - not unsaved wounds. The rule says nothing about unsaved wounds (it is ap2 anyway but obivously cover applies), just wonuds which have been inflicted, wounds which have been applied to the model.

I brought this up as I asked this question before ages ago and a few folk said it's after armour saves, though the rules do not mention failed armoured saves at all and clearly says wounds inflicted - when you roll to save, you roll for how many wounds have been inflicted on your unit.

Whatcha think?
No. A wound is not inflicted until the save has been failed. If it had been, then a model with 1 wound who has to take 2 armour saves would be dead, even if he passed them.

I get what you mean but the rule book doesn't do it that way, tbh it does things arse over tit. Really you receive a wound when failed the save, though the rule book says you receive wounds and then any which fail armour saves are casaulities, so a wound isn't inflicted until the save is the failed, the wound is inflicted when you roll to wound, then you get casaulities.

**Doomthumbs**

Love it, love everything about it.
It does say for each wound inflicted, not unsaved wound. To me that reads as each of the D3 S3 Ap2 hits that become wounds to be saved against would restore a wound to the hive tyrant. Not just the wounds that cause unsaved wounds or casualties. Wounds inflicted are just the hit dice that made it through, not the result of the opponent making any saves.
The Tyranid codex has a bunch of precedents.
"Hits inflicted by Dessicator larvae wound on a 2+." That reads the exact same way as per the usage of "Inflict". The dice you roll to see if you hit that are successful will trigger this rule.
The devourer which causes -1 Ld to a unit per casualty. Not per wound inflicted or unsaved wound, per casualty.
Venom cannons also say each glancing or penetrating hit inflicted, with similar usage ad meaning.

**nosferatu1001**

The rulebook does define "inflicted" as prior to making armour saves (etc) - had this come up with the necron power that gives you hits for each wound inflicted.

**mercer**

Doomthumbs wrote:Love it, love everything about it.
It does say for each wound inflicted, not unsaved wound. To me that reads as each of the D3 S3 Ap2 hits that become wounds to be saved against would restore a wound to the hive tyrant. Not just the wounds that cause unsaved wounds or casualties. Wounds inflicted are just the hit dice that made it through, not the result of the opponent making any saves.
The Tyranid codex has a bunch of precedents.
"Hits inflicted by Dessicator larvae wound on a 2+." That reads the exact same way as per the usage of "Inflict". The dice you roll to see if you hit that are successful will trigger this rule.
The devourer which causes -1 Ld to a unit per casualty. Not per wound inflicted or unsaved wound, per casualty.
Venom cannons also say each glancing or penetrating hit inflicted, with similar usage ad meaning.

Exactly! Plenty examples through the Tyranid codex how this works. Looking at it, the power obivously works like this because it's short ranged, low strength, low number of hits and is a free power and a free power won't be nerfed that much.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The rulebook does define "inflicted" as prior to making armour saves (etc) - had this come up with the necron power that gives you hits for each wound inflicted.

Exactly, inflicted is before to armour saves, so it's each wound inflicted. Nosferatu is probably my favourite rules laywer of Dakka

**Gwar!**

This is the same "problem" vect has too. He gains wounds for every wound he causes with the Orb thingies, not "unsaved" wounds.

**mercer**

Vect is a character in the D.E codex I guess? What's the exact wording of that?

**garf**

Doomthumbs wrote:The devourer which causes -1 Ld to a unit per casualty. Not per wound inflicted or unsaved wound, per casualty.

wait a second, they do?
*pages through codex* did devourers just become the most awesome weapon ever?

**nosferatu1001**

Wish I had a rulebook to look up the page reference, but when making armour saves etc it talks about wounds that have already been inflicted - there is no "wounding hits" nomenclature, which would have been more useful!

**Doomthumbs**

Just some math to show the balance on this.
[Edit: I blow at math]
As per the rules the Leech Essence is pretty clearly the winner in any way you want to look at for recovering wounds. That makes sense to me that the Tyrant and Swarmlord are the only Monsters capable of this power. Its almost assuredly giving you at least one wound back a turn. On a 4 wound model that your opponent really SHOULD have to work to kill and focus fire on according to fluff. If you're not, you maybe don't deserve to not get eaten. Just start rubbing yourself down with tenderizing spice.

Nos, I like you a lot better when we agree on things.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Garf, yes. Yes they are just that cool. If 7 models die to devourer shooting, its a -7 to leadership. The rule states when a unit suffers a casualty as a result of a model with a devourer it gets a -1 Ld.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wording for Vect actually reads to side with Mercer, Gwar.

It says "No armor saves are allowed against wounds inflicted"
That kinda cancels out what you're saying, as the wounds are inflicted BEFORE the armor saves.

**mercer**

garf wrote:
Doomthumbs wrote:The devourer which causes -1 Ld to a unit per casualty. Not per wound inflicted or unsaved wound, per casualty.

wait a second, they do?
*pages through codex* did devourers just become the most awesome weapon ever?

Not exactly. It says if the unit suffers casualities thanks to the devourer and then take a morale test it's -1, not -1 per casuality. The key word however is casuality.

It's like desiccator larve, it says hits are inflicted are wounded on a 2+, which means a wound is inflicted on a 2+ - key word here is inflicted, the same word as the leech essence bu no one argues it - you get a armour save per wound inflicted with the desiccator larve, everyone knows that so is the same for leech essence.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wish I had a rulebook to look up the page reference, but when making armour saves etc it talks about wounds that have already been inflicted - there is no "wounding hits" nomenclature, which would have been more useful!

It's p20 I think. It says roll a D6 to save every model which has been wounded. The wound has already been inflicted at this point.

**nosferatu1001**

I thought the psychic shooting powers for a HT automatically hit Mercer?

**mercer**

Doomthumbs wrote:Just some math to show the balance on this.
Hive Tyrant has a BS of 3, so his hit dice on Psychic shooting attacks need rolls of 4+ to hit. On average, hes going to roll a 2 for attacks on a D3. Those 2 dice have a 50% chance each to inflict a wound. Thats one inflicted wound, average. So you're almost guaranteed that you will recover a wound on the Tyrant. Your chances for a 5 or 6 on the D3 and 4+ on everything else and having a crazy good time are: [(1/3)*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/2)] = a 1/24 chance (4.1%) of regenerating 3 wounds. Chances for two wounds making it through out of 3 are about 1/12 or a 8.3% chance. Not too shabby!

Now if I purchased regeneration for the Tyrant, I need to roll a 6 to regain a wound. Lets say the Tyrant is in bad shape and has taken 3 wounds. He gets to roll 3 dice at the start of the turn to regen. [3*(1/6)]= 50% chance to regen one wound. Or a 1/216 chance (0.46%) of regenerating 3 wounds. That sucks. If only there was a better way!
Leech Essense is that way, If you're a Tyrant.
As per the rules the Leech Essence is pretty clearly the winner in any way you want to look at for recovering wounds. That makes sense to me that the Tyrant and Swarmlord are the only Monsters capable of this power. Its almost assuredly giving you at least one wound back a turn. On a 4 wound model that your opponent really SHOULD have to work to kill and focus fire on according to fluff. If you're not, you maybe don't deserve to not get eaten. Just start rubbing yourself down with tenderizing spice.

Nos, I like you a lot better when we agree on things.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Garf, yes. Yes they are just that cool. If 7 models die to devourer shooting, its a -7 to leadership. The rule states when a unit suffers a casualty as a result of a model with a devourer it gets a -1 Ld.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wording for Vect actually reads to side with Mercer, Gwar.

It says "No armor saves are allowed against wounds inflicted"
That kinda cancels out what you're saying, as the wounds are inflicted BEFORE the armor saves.

Doomthumb, the Tyrants power auto hits mate.

And as mentioned, the rule for the devourer is -1 to the leadership, not -1 per model. It says suffers -1 penalty not -1 per casuality.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:I thought the psychic shooting powers for a HT automatically hit Mercer?

They do. I didn't say they didn't, doomthumb did

**Doomthumbs**

The PSA does auto hit the unit, yes.
But the D3 dice do NOT. That auto hit unit takes D3 hits. You Have to roll to hit that.
Wounds versus unsaved wounds are discussed on pg 25 under "Taking Saving Throws".

**Gwar!**

Doomthumbs wrote:Wording for Vect actually reads to side with Mercer, Gwar.

It says "No armor saves are allowed against wounds inflicted"
That kinda cancels out what you're saying, as the wounds are inflicted BEFORE the armor saves.

I was not talking about that, I was talking about the Wound Restoration effect.

**Doomthumbs**

Also, I'm pretty sure it says one or more casualties as a result of "A" devourer. Not a unit armed with devourers.
If you wanted to be doing a full on RAW screw over, Roll each gun separately. Each devourer is the subject causing the effect. Each gun that gets a kill (up to 3 because of assault 3 and luck) causes a -1. Two Guns could cause -2. A pod of 20 devgaunts is pretty demoralizing.

**nosferatu1001**

So you are saying that the auto hit only applies to the shooting power, despite the shooting power "weapon" being the D3 hits?

The weapon profile of the PSA is essentially "Assault D3" - the only portion of the power that CAN autohit is the D3 part, as there is no other effect.

If you auto hit you auto hit the D3 hits. Gah, too many hits!

**mercer**

Doomthumbs wrote:The PSA does auto hit the unit, yes.
But the D3 dice do NOT. That auto hit unit takes D3 hits. You Have to roll to hit that.
Wounds versus unsaved wounds are discussed on pg 25 under "Taking Saving Throws".

Yes I know. You said he needs a 4+ to hit....

**Doomthumbs**

If it was "Auto hit" for the "D3 Hits" that it causes why would you roll a D3? Why wouldnt all of them auto hit?
Because its not the same thing.
The PSA hits the unit automatically, yes. Measured from the Tyrant to the closest model, If its in range, the PSA will hit.
When it does, it rolls a D3.
It rolls that many dice to hit on a 4+ due to a BS3.
It then rolls wounds against the targeted model's toughness at a ST3. Those are the wounds inflicted.

**mercer**

Doomthumbs wrote:Also, I'm pretty sure it says one or more casualties as a result of "A" devourer. Not a unit armed with devourers.
If you wanted to be doing a full on RAW screw over, Roll each gun separately. Each devourer is the subject causing the effect. Each gun that gets a kill (up to 3 because of assault 3 and luck) causes a -1. Two Guns could cause -2. A pod of 20 devgaunts is pretty demoralizing.

It does say "a" devourer so I guess you could do it that way, it's going with the rules anyway and a squad of Devilgaunts would seriously hurt

**Doomthumbs**

You would have to roll separately, yes. Can't distinguish which gun was which if you roll in a big pile.
And it is a big pile, if 20 gaunts gives you 60 shots.
Or 20 piles of 3 rolling to hit and wound separately. If any wounds result from any pile, that pile of 3 dice just caused a -1 Leadership modifier.
If one pile of 3 gets 3 wounds and 3 casualties as a result, it still only gets a -1. So it is per gun, not per casualty as I think I garbled previously.

**calypso2ts**

Doomthumbs wrote:If it was "Auto hit" for the "D3 Hits" that it causes why would you roll a D3? Why wouldnt all of them auto hit?
Because its not the same thing.

You roll a D3 to determine the number of auto hits that occur? I am confused why you think the 'suffers x hits' for this is different than for, say, a vehicle explosion in which the unit suffers X S4 hits...same idea

I think the idea that a power is good or bad is a horrible way to decide if something should be allowed (in this case the inflicted debate).

**Doomthumbs**

Someone wise just informed me that Vect;s rules are different from the wording I posted. I was using the 2001 DE Codex, not the new one.
Apparently he has a new weapon, Obsidion Orbs, that say "Each wound caused by an Obsidian Orb will heal a wound Vect has has suffered earlier in the battle."
As it says Wound and not "Unsaved Wound", it means even if someone passes a save against it he gets to heal a wound.

**garf**

Doomthumbs wrote:You would have to roll separately, yes. Can't distinguish which gun was which if you roll in a big pile.
And it is a big pile, if 20 gaunts gives you 60 shots.
Or 20 piles of 3 rolling to hit and wound separately. If any wounds result from any pile, that pile of 3 dice just caused a -1 Leadership modifier.
If one pile of 3 gets 3 wounds and 3 casualties as a result, it still only gets a -1. So it is per gun, not per casualty as I think I garbled previously.

maybe roll them in a group of 20, replace any wounds with colored dice for the extra sets, colored dice dont cause more LD? while technically not "right" I think its pretty statistically close...

**nosferatu1001**

Doomthumbs - the 12" range is simply part of the weapon profile.

What "autohits" are the D3 "hits" that the power inflicts. It is D3 for the same reason as Lootas are D3 shots. Balance.

**calypso2ts**

While were discussing it, could someone quote the devourer rule on penalties to leadership - it seems to be really garbled.

Also, the rolling process you described is not statistically equivalent to rolling each individually for the purposes of determining which 'gun' caused the casualty.

**Doomthumbs**

Ummhmm... but you still have to roll to wound using Strength 3, correct? The D3 is the number of hits, you don't have to roll to hit past that.
But that number of automatic hits still has to roll to wound. Strength 3 versus toughness whatever you've got. The ones that make the grade are wounds that the hive tyrant gets back, as they are the inflicted wounds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its way off topic calypso, but I'll post it.
Page 81 Tyranid codex, Under Devourer, the part after the *
"If an enemy unit suffers one or more casualties as a result of a devourer and is required to take a morale check at the end of the phase, it suffers a -1 penalty to its Leadership."