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I've liked the fluff for the Crimson Fists since third edition when they had Cortez as a captain for the army. Now two editions worth of codices have passed and he hasn't appeared, but in popped a character who's stats and rules smacked of Alessio Cortez.

In a tournament setting, would most people have problems with modelling up a character on a terminator base, wearing artificier armor, using an ornate greenstuff powerfist as Lysander. As Cortez has always been a tough "fluffy" character, the eternal warrior and 3++ depicted that perfectly. If he is modelled up (With wargear that appears different) and follows all the rules for Lysander would people have a problem with it?

Before I decide to throw it on the tabletop in a competitive game I just wanted a general consensus about whether people would consider it MFA since he's supposed to be terminator and is instead smaller in size, wouldn't work as a counts as since he has a different equipment loadout, or whether people would accept it.

AFAIK, isnt this one of the features of the Space marine codex? That you're allowed to take one character from an army and user him in your own chapter as long as he follows the EXACT same rules?

liam0404 wrote:AFAIK, isnt this one of the features of the Space marine codex? That you're allowed to take one character from an army and user him in your own chapter as long as he follows the EXACT same rules?

Yes, you can.

It's called "counts as". So long as you make it clear what characters rules you are using, you can paint your doods however you want.

That's pretty neat. Score one for re-usability!

The only reason I wanted some other opinions is when I was playing a friendly game, someone wouldn't play because it wasn't the model for Lysander, and he said because it wasn't WYSIWYG that he wouldn't play against it. Score one for elitist jerks I suppose.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The only reason I wanted some other opinions is when I was playing a friendly game, someone wouldn't play because it wasn't the model for Lysander, and he said because it wasn't WYSIWYG that he wouldn't play against it. Score one for elitist jerks I suppose.

Lolwhut?

Tell him he is being a git and find good people to play.

Conversions are way fun. Although we don't get anything like this in our codex, my Marshal is a conversion fron the Plastic Chaos Terminator Lord - he's spiky AND killy

in a friendly game, i'd expect there to be no problems as long as you're clear from the outset that the model is a "counts as" lysander. in a tournament, i WOULD expect a problem. you're attempting to use a power armored character as a terminator armored one. not only is the model's size different (affecting TLOS) but so is the base size that is supposed to be used. busting out the incorrect modelling both in armor/weapons/base size/model size in a setting where rules are supposed to be standardized and you're theoretically playing against strangers (i.e. a tourney) is not a good idea.

I know the rules aren't as good but i'd recommend in tournies using the rules for pedro. he's got a powerfist and invul save (which were the two things that cortez had in 3rd edition) and none of the problems that lysander would ruleswise. otherwise, i'd just recommend getting a lysander model and saying that cortez put on his extra suit of armor.

warboss wrote:in a friendly game, i'd expect there to be no problems as long as you're clear from the outset that the model is a "counts as" lysander. in a tournament, i WOULD expect a problem. you're attempting to use a power armored character as a terminator armored one. not only is the model's size different (affecting TLOS) but so is the base size that is supposed to be used.

The wrong armor is a significant WYSIWYG problem, if you're using a custom character in terminator armor then you should use a terminator armored model, but there is no base size that is 'supposed to be used' - you use the base that came with the model, not a particular sized base. The vast majority of terminators come with small bases, so are perfectly fine to use on them, and it's actually a violation of the rules to use one of the old terminator models on a large base.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:
but there is no base size that is 'supposed to be used' - you use the base that came with the model, not a particular sized base. The vast majority of terminators come with small bases, so are perfectly fine to use on them, and it's actually a violation of the rules to use one of the old terminator models on a large base.

um, no. there is a base size that is "supposed to be used", it's the one that comes with the model. ALL terminators sculpted since the middle of 3rd edition 10 years ago come with 40mm bases and are pictured based on them and not the small ones you're talking about. the sprue of small bases that come with current plastic terminator sets is for the teleport homer, not the terminators. the sprue only has 4 which is less than the min squad size as well as the number of termies in the pack. the only currently still sold exception to this rule are deathwing terminators which are a mid 2nd edition sculpt. yes, it is technically against RAW to put the old termies on big bases but i've never met a person during a game that objected while i have met plenty who objected to the old ones still being used regardless of RAW. that's the reason i keep mine based on the small ones but carry around 40mm just in case. if you're going to make a conversion of something in terminator armor, you should go with the rule (40mm) and not the exception unless you simply craze gamestore drama.

either way, there are plenty of other problems besides base size. power fist =/= thunder hammer... power armor =/= terminator armor... 3rd edition 3+ fluff based invul =/= other special character's stormshield 3+ invul save. there are tons of problems with this idea for a tourney setting. if you're only playing friendly games, feel free to use a peanut M&M as your "model" as i expect few people would have a problem with it in that setting as long as its appropriately based.

warboss wrote:um, no. there is a base size that is "supposed to be used", it's the one that comes with the model. ALL terminators sculpted since the middle of 3rd edition 10 years ago come with 40mm bases and are pictured based on them and not the small ones you're talking about. the sprue of small bases that come with current plastic terminator sets is for the teleport homer, not the terminators.

Um, yes. Current terminator lines come with 2 base sizes, both are legal bases according to the rules. All of the older terminator models only come with small bases, so only small bases are legal to use for them. There is no single base size that is supposed to be used, and the 25mm base is a better choice if you're trying to pick a single base size, as it's legal for almost all terminators, instead of just a fraction of models out there.

yes, it is technically against RAW to put the old termies on big bases but i've never met a person during a game that objected while i have met plenty who objected to the old ones still being used regardless of RAW. that's the reason i keep mine based on the small ones but carry around 40mm just in case. if you're going to make a conversion of something in terminator armor, you should go with the rule (40mm) and not the exception unless you simply craze gamestore drama.

This is the only game I've ever played where people would accuse you of craving (I'm assuming the 'z' is a typo) drama for showing up with legal models instead of illegal ones. If a person gets angry at someone for bringing models with the correct bases on them to a game, the guy getting angry is the one craving drama (and that I'd consider crazed), not the guy who *gasp* showed up with model that follows the rules of the game. The 'rule' is 25mm, as virtually all terminators are legal on 25mm bases, while the exception is 40mm bases, which only some terminators are legal on, and very few are only legal on. For some reason there's a set of people that very much want to house rule an exception from the real rules for terminator bases, and apaprently get very angry at anyone using the real rules, or even for mentioning the real rules.

Really guys, this forum is for discussion of the actual rules, not house rules.

warboss wrote:otherwise, i'd just recommend getting a lysander model and saying that cortez put on his extra suit of armor.

I do have the lysander model that I carry in my case as an "in case someone complains" about the model. I'm more than happy to switch it out in games, and even in the tournament I was thinking of playing him in the TO had no problems with it, but I decided not to toss him onto the table because people might think with him being smaller than a terminator people might cry MFA. I just try to avoid the problem before it starts.

I can't believe anyone would give you a hard time about this. It's clearly written in the marine codex. Freakin' nuts.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

warboss wrote:um, no. there is a base size that is "supposed to be used", it's the one that comes with the model. ALL terminators sculpted since the middle of 3rd edition 10 years ago come with 40mm bases and are pictured based on them and not the small ones you're talking about. the sprue of small bases that come with current plastic terminator sets is for the teleport homer, not the terminators.

Um, yes. Current terminator lines come with 2 base sizes, both are legal bases according to the rules. All of the older terminator models only come with small bases, so only small bases are legal to use for them. There is no single base size that is supposed to be used, and the 25mm base is a better choice if you're trying to pick a single base size, as it's legal for almost all terminators, instead of just a fraction of models out there.

um... no. if you're going to quote me, don't exclude the part about how the small bases that come with the kit aren't legal and why (there's not enough for the squad since they're for the homer). unless you're buying DA terminators, the ONLY legal bases for current style terminators are 40mm. if you're going to do otherwise, be prepared to have the majority of gamers disagree with you as well as most tourney organizers and FAQs as well as a small company you may have heard of called Games Workshop.

And the website does not constitute rules. Otherwise you would have M8 dwarf warriors....

the rules are clear and not in disagreement... you use the bases you're provided. the website tells you what bases are offiically provided.

And, for the final time, the website does not constitute rules.

The bases provided IN THE BOX are the bases provided. Nothing else actually matters.

If you are supplied with 8 25mm bases you can place all terminators on those bases if you wanted to. BEcause that is what was ACTUALLY supplied.

As for your assertion that rebasing old terminators to the new bases has never caused an issue, that is false, as I have played in tournaments where people have had issues with it. Trying to enforce a houserule (rebasing terminators) is not a great a idea in general.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The bases provided IN THE BOX are the bases provided. Nothing else actually matters.

Question: What happens if the box you buy is screwed up and has the wrong sized bases in it?

I imagine someone, at some point, has bought a Dreadnought box that accidentally had 25mm bases in it.

Do you go with what was actually supplied in the box, or do you have to go with what should have been in the box?

RAW, you go with the bases supplied.

Thats the only rules answer.

warboss wrote:um... no. if you're going to quote me, don't exclude the part about how the small bases that come with the kit aren't legal and why (there's not enough for the squad since they're for the homer). Unless you're buying DA terminators, the ONLY legal bases for current style terminators are 40mm.

I didn't quote it because it was wrong and I felt that pointing out that it was wrong would detract from the main discussion. If the bases are provided, they're legal, your other reasoning is extraneous to the rules of the game.

if you're going to do otherwise, be prepared to have the majority of gamers disagree with you as well as most tourney organizers and FAQs as well as a small company you may have heard of called Games Workshop.

I'm following Games Workshop's rules here, you're making up house rules and getting angry about people not following them. Marketing text is not rules, especially when the marketing text is just a partial listing of what is in the box.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:As for your assertion that rebasing old terminators to the new bases has never caused an issue, that is false, as I have played in tournaments where people have had issues with it. Trying to enforce a houserule (rebasing terminators) is not a great a idea in general.

I'm not surprised, for all of the anger that some people here have about small bases on terminators, large bases actually provide more advantage. You get a larger charge range from a transport, can put special weapons closer on a deep strike, can spread the squad out more to avoid templates, and so on. The house rule some people want to enforce requires that you model for advantage in direct contradiction to the main rules!

In addition it really ISNT most tourney organisers, at leas t not in the UK. I have *never* been to a proper 40+ player tournament whcih has *ever* said anything other than "bases supplied with" as the rule.

Warboss is wrong on a number of accounts.