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anyone with strong opinions from a competitive standpoint know if an all hellion/jetbike list with the helion special character would be viable?

I want to think it works well. But I think you are better off not spamming them.

One Squad with the Baron and the Squad leader with agonizer is great at shooting and charging infantry units. Just need to crack armor, which the DE have good choices at doing that.

One problem is that the Baron does not have a power weapon...he's strong, but not doing too much to harder infantry, and so you'll be relying on one Agonizer and joe attacks.
In addition, they are great at taking objectives. Fast, pretty good cover saves when boosting, etc.

As for jetbikes...look more like special weapon delivery platforms at low numbers or flying knives with more members...though... in general it's all fragile.

I would think you'd have stuff in reserves.
Have any dark lances focus on taking away stuff like Whirlwinds and Thunderfire cannons, or kicking out Marines/IG with flamers out of their rides.

Stuff like that.
I don't know, it looks 'cute', but very fickle with respect to durability.

Da_Mega_Grot wrote:anyone with strong opinions from a competitive standpoint know if an all hellion/jetbike list with the helion special character would be viable?

I dont have a strong opinion about hellions but my question for someone planning to run reavers would be this....
ok, you move 36" in a turn.... but what do you do when you get there? reavers dont have great shooting options or very good close combat abilities and they arent scoring. so.... errrrr.... whats the point of all that mobility?

To make them a even juicier target for flamers.
Honestly, they only thing they have is the ability to come in on a 'quiet' side and threaten with the special weapons they pack.... or if you are against a MSU army that is not meched up, you can pass over them and do more possible damage, but this will be few and far between.

Sanctjud wrote:To make them a even juicier target for flamers.

sometimes I dont know when you're joking.....

Well, there is truth to it.
They are flamer bait already.
Turbo boostin so far up is generally... well easier for the opponent to flamer them to death.

So, I was actually agreeing with you that the extra boost distance is somewhat questionable in terms of being a 'bonus'.

ok. lol. wasnt sure....

The point of Reaver Jetbikes is to do strafing runs over back-field units.

They fly in, they drop a butt-load of automatic hits, kill most of whatever gets hit, and repeats until there is nothing left.

12 inch deployment in, 36 inch turbo-boost, lots of auto-hitting high str attacks means they are also a gigantic threat magnet. The enemy has to choose to A) go after the reavers, and leave most of your other stuff alone, or deal with the reavers strafing any non-meched units off the board.

The issue is, Reavers are not that hard to kill if they are committing to this fly over.

Well, with good placement and willingness to take DT rolls, on most well mapped baord there'll be a plave to hide within 18"
hopefully....

yeah.... reavers have to slow down in order to shoot.... and when they do they're toughness 3 armor 5+. pretty much the lightest target an opponent could wish for.

Fact being, Reavers have PfP, Drugs, two weapons, skilled rider, fire 2 splinter rifle shots prior to assaults and strike before 90% of the game if not entrenched in cover.

They aren't as easy to kill as they may seem in close combat, although obviously don't run them after dedicated cc units.

uhm. Let's say you bring 6 reavers against a combat squad w/ flamer and sarge.

Reavers swing first:

12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, both most likely saved, or one dead. +1 S or reroll wounds would get you one kill. If charging, this changes to one dead very likely, and possibly 2 with the right drugs.

Assuming one marine died, that's 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, and likely one dead. Drawn combat.

Reavers don't really belong in CC, unless you're bringing an arena champ, preferably with an agonizer. At that point, the unit is looking very expensive.

I prefer the screened shooting approach, with occasional slashing attacks against exposed targets. I like Scourges quite a bit, but the reavers do give you a bit more durability with your two heat lances.

I just dont see the point of this unit in general. they're not great shooters, they're not scoring, they're not great assaulters. yeah they're fast but so what? they cant do much once they get there. they shoot heat lances. thats the only positive thing I really have to say about them.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:uhm. Let's say you bring 6 reavers against a combat squad w/ flamer and sarge.

Reavers swing first:

12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, both most likely saved, or one dead. +1 S or reroll wounds would get you one kill. If charging, this changes to one dead very likely, and possibly 2 with the right drugs.

Assuming one marine died, that's 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, and likely one dead. Drawn combat.

Reavers don't really belong in CC, unless you're bringing an arena champ, preferably with an agonizer. At that point, the unit is looking very expensive.

I prefer the screened shooting approach, with occasional slashing attacks against exposed targets. I like Scourges quite a bit, but the reavers do give you a bit more durability with your two heat lances.

Wow there horsey.

1: How did the reavers end up in charge range? Did they melta down a land raider? If so, good for them.

2: If the reavers where the once who inisiated the charge, why on earth did they do that? Would it not be better to turbo boost over them, claiming a cover save and inflick 6D3 S6 hits on the unit? That is 1 and a half dead marine with virtualy no losses. If they had 2 cluster caltrops in there we are talking 1 dead marine from the 4 bikes and 2 from the one with the caltrops. 3 less marines sounds great.

3: why on earth do the 6 bikes not rapid fire before they charge? 12 shots is one dead marine.

So asuming that you first fly over with caltrops and kill 3, turn back around the next round and shoot 1, and then charge you got 6 bikes vs 6 marines mutch better ods. Although it it was me, I would continue nailing 3 each round with the flyby attack.

Reavers. Enh. Long story short I think they're overcosted. If I wanted heat lances, I'd deepstrike a squad of 5 Scourges in, take my shots, and move on.

Regardless, that squad is around ~205 for two heat lances, that have horribly short melta range. For just 115 points, I can take a Ravager with 3 36" Dark Lances, with a 5++ save. Heat Lances will probably never see the light of day in my lists.

Helions. I see the promise. I'll try to work out a squad of at least 6 in my list, possibly with the SC - pulling ICs out of CC 3D6 on a 2+ is too good to pass up.

1: How did the reavers end up in charge range? Did they melta down a land raider? If so, good for them.

2: If the reavers where the once who inisiated the charge, why on earth did they do that? Would it not be better to turbo boost over them, claiming a cover save and inflick 6D3 S6 hits on the unit? That is 1 and a half dead marine with virtualy no losses. If they had 2 cluster caltrops in there we are talking 1 dead marine from the 4 bikes and 2 from the one with the caltrops. 3 less marines sounds great.

3: why on earth do the 6 bikes not rapid fire before they charge? 12 shots is one dead marine.

Did you read the post prior to mine? To quote:

Fact being, Reavers have PfP, Drugs, two weapons, skilled rider, fire 2 splinter rifle shots prior to assaults and strike before 90% of the game if not entrenched in cover.

They aren't as easy to kill as they may seem in close combat, although obviously don't run them after dedicated cc units.

My point is that they are actually fairly bad in combat, and don't really belong there. Against a very non-dedicated CC unit, they struggle. Even assuming they rapid fire, that combat is not good for them. And the enemy is under 100 pts. Compared to the reaver build in point 2 above which is just under 200 pts?

I'm a fan of reavers, but I prefer a cautious approach with them. They are one of 3 platforms for heat lances, and I'm not dropping ravagers in most of my lists. So only 2 real options, and a threat range of 21" melta is strong stuff. I think both Scourges and Reavers have their place, but the cost involved with reavers necessitates an approach that maximizes their melta potential against mech/hybrid lists.

It may work and it will be stronger the more ICs your opponent fields with the hellion ability to H&R and drag IC's off to be singled out.

The issue is going to be AT - it is all going to depend on heat lances on the bikes in all likelihood.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:uhm. Let's say you bring 6 reavers against a combat squad w/ flamer and sarge.

Reavers swing first:

12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, both most likely saved, or one dead. +1 S or reroll wounds would get you one kill. If charging, this changes to one dead very likely, and possibly 2 with the right drugs.

Assuming one marine died, that's 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, and likely one dead. Drawn combat.

Reavers don't really belong in CC, unless you're bringing an arena champ, preferably with an agonizer. At that point, the unit is looking very expensive.

I prefer the screened shooting approach, with occasional slashing attacks against exposed targets. I like Scourges quite a bit, but the reavers do give you a bit more durability with your two heat lances.

You're ignoring the drug result, possible PfP at that point and rapid fire shooting prior to the assault. An assault unit's worth is measured by the combined strength of it's pre-assault shooting + CC potential. If we're talking about what would actually happen, your unit in question would fire 4 rapid fire splinter rifles, and two heat lances - possibly killing a few before combat. A charge is fatal at this point, considering the bikes would have 18 attacks, 9 hits, and 1-2 wounds. The Reavers win combat and sweep at the end of their next turn, protecting them from the next shooting phase.

They can possibly have furious charge, they have two weapons, rapid fire shooting and mobility to pick on units they can beat in a two turn cycle.

Warhammer 40k isn't a vacuum where you pull your penis out, put it on the table and then math-hammer it while ignoring the rest of the game.