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I was just thinking that streamlining is all well and good but sometimes a good old fashioned complex wargame is what i wanna play. I remember when i played more frequently (about 5 year ago) i was always shocked how shallow the 3rd edition rules were compared to it's contempary edition of WHFB. So lets have some suggestion for 'deeper' optional rules for 40k. My suggestions are 'Psychology', 'Veteran skills', 'Chain of command', 'Overwatch', 'Combat resolution', 'Timed detonations', 'fortifying positions' and 'Enfillading fire'... Can't be bothered going into detail with any of these but you should get the idea. Discuss.....

Most of those aren't included in the game because this is supposed to be more of a game than, for example, going on Overwatch every turn and annhiliating the other person's army because you got turn 1.

Timed Detonations don't matter for example, because you can move away.

Enfilading fire isn't something that really matters when people have Power Armor on and when it's something that never happens.

etc. etc. 40k is just a different enviorment than Fantasy in some cases, and in other cases, it's unbalanced or would be useless.

I can't really see this working. I like the idea of fortifying positions. something like "units who are carrying assault, pistol, [maybe rapid fire]" weapons can fortify their position if they don't move, giving +1 to cover saves. [though, this is like a souped up version of going to ground.]

care to expand?

But that's what "Going to Ground" is, plus it's done correctly and limits you. Just standing still shouldn't make sense, and Fortifying positions I believe was for the Techmarine alone.

Afterall, in the middle of a battle on a wartorn field you don't suddenly turn the bushes in front of you into steel or lay in Adaminatine Barricades to your trench system./

I'll be honest the main things i want are veteran skills and psychology. But seriously in my opinion WHFB 6th Ed was the perfect game, so tactical, like chess. WH40K just feels like so much dry dice rolling... The narrative element is all that keeps me playing 40k...

Perkustin wrote:I'll be honest the main things i want are veteran skills and psychology. But seriously in my opinion WHFB 6th Ed was the perfect game, so tactical, like chess. WH40K just feels like so much dry dice rolling... The narrative element is all that keeps me playing 40k...

I'm pretty sure the unit stats cover the veteran skills and psychology parts already.

the other thing besides balance to consider is that each turn in 40K is supposed to be equivalant to 2 seconds of real battle, enfilade fire cant happen in a 2 second spurt, its just not physically possible, entire games of 40K in real time only last 10-14 seconds.

nsdocholiday wrote:the other thing besides balance to consider is that each turn in 40K is supposed to be equivalant to 2 seconds of real battle, enfilade fire cant happen in a 2 second spurt, its just not physically possible, entire games of 40K in real time only last 10-14 seconds.

Wrong...

The idea of time in the game is rather a misunderstood thing.

It's different in every circumstance, at many points in the book it is represented as troops sneaking forward through cover, and other times as them running across a field shooting and getting gunned down in a second's notice.

HI folks.
There are many games that 'grow with the player skills.'
They all start with the minimum resolution methods and direct mapping mechanics to deliver simple rules and complex gameplay.
(Many simply have a few modifiers to get minimal graduation which can be expanded upon later WITHOUT adding more rules, to give a more detailed game.EG we started with 5 artilery modifiers in Firefly. Then progressed untill we were using all 32!Very detaiuled resolution with out a special rule in sight.)

Unfortunatley 40k has been developed with VERY complicated rules for the simple gameplay.As it focused heavily on stratey rather than tactical gameplay , to directly support minature sales.

To arrive at simple rules that can be expanded to give a range of complexity to suit a wider range of gamers.A complete re-write is the most effective way forward IMO.

IF we rerduced the resolution methods from 7 to 2.
We would have loads more room for detail in the 40k rules.

40k is written with VERY complicated rules and very simple game play because most at GW think this is what thier core demoghraphic want.(11 to 16 year olds.)

Older more experianced players usualy want simple rules and more complex gameplay.(And so 80 % leave GW behind.)

TTFN

Wouldn't the special rules of SC/IC and even some normal unit, cover thous types of rules. If you want basic 40K use the quick start book that comes with AoBR. A 1500pts game can already take up to 2 hours, we don't need a bunch of rules that will just slow the game down.

Warmahordes FTW!

40k was toned down in complexity to allow for larger games with more models on the field, and I think it should stay that way. There are Other games out there is you want more complexity but fewer models on the field. Just imagine trying to play a battle of 100 models vs. 100 models using D+D rules. A game like that would take days probably. It is a Marketing decision that GW decided to make the game easier for more models on the table so people will not feel bad owning an entire chapter of marines but never being able to put more than 1500pts of them on the table.

Yeah I agree with that...I do still miss being able to throw hand grenades though...but then...I don't miss those damn rapid fire dice and guns jamming every second turn!

No

More detail does not entail more depth. If you're not getting the tactics of Warhammer 40,000, then head down to the Tactics Forum and start looking for posts that aren't just misplaced from the Army List forum.

HI .
I agree with Nurglitch.
More player options in game , creates more tacticval diversity, and expands the gameplay options.

If applied badly , all more detail does is bog a game down with unecissary complication.

TTFN