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There are several parts to this...

A) a Swarmlord with 2 Tyrant Guards are a single unit. A unit of gaunts is setup in front on them as a cover shield. Now the majority of the Swarmlord's unit, being the two guards (not MC's), are in cover, granting cover to the entire unit, including the Swarmlord... is this correct?

B) using the above example. Now let's say that shooting kills many of the guants leaving only a thinly spread line, but with only 1 guant directly in front of the Swarmlord's unit... The guant unit, from front to back, is technically in front on the Swarmlord's unit but only 1 model is actually 'blocking' the rear unit... does the Swarmlord's unit still claim cover from the other unit?

C) using the above example. Now let's say that further shooting has taken the guants completely out of 'coherency', leaving a few on either side and again only 1 directly in front of the Swarmlord's unit (but not in coherency)... does the Swarmlord's unit still claim cover from the other unit?

Thanks!

Gunzhard wrote:A) a Swarmlord with 2 Tyrant Guards are a single unit. A unit of gaunts is setup in front on them as a cover shield. Now the majority of the Swarmlord's unit, being the two guards (not MC's), are in cover, granting cover to the entire unit, including the Swarmlord... is this correct?

That's correct. Note though that because the Swarmlord is an MC joined to a unit of non-MCs, he can still be targeted individually by enemy shooting ("Shooting at Independant Characters" ... page 49 of the rulebook). He'll get the cover save, though, as that applies to the unit.

B) using the above example. Now let's say that shooting kills many of the guants leaving only a thinly spread line, but with only 1 guant directly in front of the Swarmlord's unit... The guant unit, from front to back, is technically in front on the Swarmlord's unit but only 1 model is actually 'blocking' the rear unit... does the Swarmlord's unit still claim cover from the other unit?

If the LOS passes through the unit of Gaunts, as opposed to over them, then yes, the unit still gets a save. Note that the Swarmlord himself can't calim a cover save from LOS passing through a unit (as MC's have to be 50% obscured to count as in cover. But whether or not the unit has a cover save depends on how much of the unit is in cover.

C) using the above example. Now let's say that further shooting has taken the guants completely out of 'coherency', leaving a few on either side and again only 1 directly in front of the Swarmlord's unit (but not in coherency)... does the Swarmlord's unit still claim cover from the other unit?

Coherency has no bearing on whether or not cover is granted.

insaniak wrote:

Gunzhard wrote:A) a Swarmlord with 2 Tyrant Guards are a single unit. A unit of gaunts is setup in front on them as a cover shield. Now the majority of the Swarmlord's unit, being the two guards (not MC's), are in cover, granting cover to the entire unit, including the Swarmlord... is this correct?

That's correct. Note though that because the Swarmlord is an MC joined to a unit of non-MCs, he can still be targeted individually by enemy shooting ("Shooting at Independant Characters" ... page 49 of the rulebook). He'll get the cover save, though, as that applies to the unit.

Ok - so he can be targeted individually I see that. Now the Tyrant Guard, who's job is to protect the Swarmlord by allowing him to join their unit, are not MC's... so even though this 'shieldwall' rule (that simply allows him to join the unit) exists to 'protect' the Swarmlord, EDIT: it really only allows him a cover save when the unit is in cover then? ...so if I target the Swarmlord the owning player cannot allocate wounds to the other models?

B) using the above example. Now let's say that shooting kills many of the guants leaving only a thinly spread line, but with only 1 guant directly in front of the Swarmlord's unit... The guant unit, from front to back, is technically in front on the Swarmlord's unit but only 1 model is actually 'blocking' the rear unit... does the Swarmlord's unit still claim cover from the other unit?

If the LOS passes through the unit of Gaunts, as opposed to over them, then yes, the unit still gets a save. Note that the Swarmlord himself can't calim a cover save from LOS passing through a unit (as MC's have to be 50% obscured to count as in cover. But whether or not the unit has a cover save depends on how much of the unit is in cover.

C) using the above example. Now let's say that further shooting has taken the guants completely out of 'coherency', leaving a few on either side and again only 1 directly in front of the Swarmlord's unit (but not in coherency)... does the Swarmlord's unit still claim cover from the other unit?

Coherency has no bearing on whether or not cover is granted.

Ok so if coherency does not matter, let's say that 1 unit of guants is spread in a line across the entire board, a gap from shooting leaves only 1 actual guant model directly blocking the Swarmlord's unit (or ANY unit for that matter)... does the unit behind still get cover?

Gunzhard wrote:Ok - so he can be targeted individually I see that. Now the Tyrant Guard, who's job is to protect the Swarmlord by allowing him to join their unit, are not MC's... so even though this 'shieldwall' rule (that simply allows him to join the unit) exists to 'protect' the Swarmlord, EDIT: it really only allows him a cover save then?

Yeah, the cover save when he otherwise wouldn't have one is the only real benefit. Although it's a pretty significant one, given how cover works for MCs in this edition.

Ok so if coherency does not matter, let's say that 1 unit of guants is spread in a line across the entire board, a gap from shooting leaves only 1 actual guant model directly blocking the Swarmlord's unit (or ANY unit for that matter)... does the unit behind still get cover?

Do you mean there is only one gaunt left in the unit? In that case it would be no, since the shot wouldn't be passing through the unit.
If you mean that the unit is spread right out, and there is a big gap with just one gaunt in it, then yes, if the LOS passes through the unit the target gets a cover save. The gaunt in the middle isn't even required... all that is required is that the shot passes between models in an intervening unit.

IIRC, yes to both.

For that second question, remember that any unit claiming a cover save would require the enemy LoS to pass between the gaunts (not over), which means you're pretty much only getting cover against infantry shooting, and any of your units that want the cover save must have infantry models behind the gaunts (so 'Fex broods, et. al. gain very little except in unique circumstances).

EDIT: Ninja'd.

EDIT EDIT: What insaniak said.

insaniak wrote:Do you mean there is only one gaunt left in the unit? In that case it would be no, since the shot wouldn't be passing through the unit.
If you mean that the unit is spread right out, and there is a big gap with just one gaunt in it, then yes, if the LOS passes through the unit the target gets a cover save. The gaunt in the middle isn't even required... all that is required is that the shot passes between models in an intervening unit.

The latter is what I meant, that several gaunts live but with a big gap...

Thanks guys!!! ...one more question:

So the guy that said his Swarmlord get's a cover save was right - however when he then said he could allocate wounds to his Tyrant Guard he was cheating! (right?)...

Insaniak - you are incorr3ect on targetting the Tyrant.

You CANNOT target the tyrant, as he is NOT AN IC - he *joins as an IC* but is NEVER an IC.

Gunzhard wrote:So the guy that said his Swarmlord get's a cover save was right - however when he then said he could allocate wounds to his Tyrant Guard he was cheating! (right?)...

That would depend on whether you were targeting the Swarmlord specifically, or just targeting the unit.

If you declare the shot at the Swarmlord, then the wounds could only be allocated to the Swarmlord. If you just target the unit, then the wounds can be allocated as normal for mixed units.

Except you CANNOT target the swarmlord. That was the point.

You are looking at the rules for *ICs* that are MCs - but the Swarmlord is not an IC. While he joins as an IC, he is never an IC

insaniak wrote:

Gunzhard wrote:So the guy that said his Swarmlord get's a cover save was right - however when he then said he could allocate wounds to his Tyrant Guard he was cheating! (right?)...

That would depend on whether you were targeting the Swarmlord specifically, or just targeting the unit.

If you declare the shot at the Swarmlord, then the wounds could only be allocated to the Swarmlord. If you just target the unit, then the wounds can be allocated as normal for mixed units.

Given you can't actually target the Swarmlord independently as he isn't an Independent Character who is also a Monstrous Creature (thus not invoking the clause on pg.49 giving permission to target Independent Characters who are Monstrous Creatures separately), allocating the wounds to his Guard is completely legit. One of the actual useful answers in the Tyranid FAQ reaffirms that he only joins as an IC, he doesn't become one, and so once he has joined he is part of the unit akin to a Sergeant and cannot leave but also cannot be picked out. Or at least the FAQ did when I last read it, it may have changed and I can't confirm it's current status.

Nos has it, cant target swarmlord seperately with shooting with he joins as an ic, as he doesnt become an ic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - you are incorr3ect on targetting the Tyrant.

You CANNOT target the tyrant, as he is NOT AN IC - he *joins as an IC* but is NEVER an IC.

I had forgotten about that argument... (Spot the guy who doesn't play Tyranids )

I don't recall if the Tyranid FAQ addresses this, and don't have it with me at work... But from memory from the last time this came up, opinions were somewhat divided as to whether joining as an IC meant that he could be targeted as one. But going by Chrysis's post, if that's in the FAQ that would be the clincher.

I likewise cannot check because I'm at work. What I do remember though is that while it doesn't specifically mention targeting it does specifically mention that he isn't an IC and so cannot leave the unit. So some small amount of extrapolation is required, although it doesn't take much to go from "Isn't an IC" to "can't be targeted as an IC".

I really wish I could check exactly what it said, I don't like making references to documents I can't read.

The FAQ does address it. First page, second to the last question on the right side.

The Swarm Lord is not treated as an Independent Character when it joins the Tyrant Guard unit.

Tyranid FAQ wrote:Q: If a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord joins a unit of Tyrant Guard, is it treated as an Independent Character
for the purposes of resolving shooting attacks (i.e. independent characters who are monstrous creatures can be targeted separately from the unit) and assaults (i.e. independent characters always count as separate units in an assault)?

A: No.

Clearly stated in the FAQ as mentioned.

Ok, much clearer than I remember. Glad that's cleared up nicely.

Arschbombe wrote:

Tyranid FAQ wrote:Q: If a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord joins a unit of Tyrant Guard, is it treated as an Independent Character
for the purposes of resolving shooting attacks (i.e. independent characters who are monstrous creatures can be targeted separately from the unit) and assaults (i.e. independent characters always count as separate units in an assault)?

A: No.

Clearly stated in the FAQ as mentioned.

Excellent. That resolves that problem, then.