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I played against the Dark Eldar yesterday. In the command-and-control scenario, my shooty foot Orks did fine. However, I was surprised to fine that a full mob of shootaboys were on the losing side of combat against his wytches. The reasons for this I won't go into (pain tokens, bad rolls, etc). This result got me thinking about my trukks in the era of new Dark Eldars.

Question: Is Ork trukk spam even less viable now than before?

I hope not; I just bought my eighth trukk!

Codices like Orks and Vanilla Sm seem to be taking more and more hits from the newer ones. Im not surprised at all that more of the former tough Ork builds are taking a back seat. Its really annoying to be honest.

Why cant they make a semi-balanced game rather then these two are a good fight, but they suck against those 2, and those 2 are a good build but suck against those new guys. My only complaint though, is if they actually DO remake the Ork dex for 5th, how much will they jack up doing that

KingCracker wrote:My only complaint though, is if they actually DO remake the Ork dex for 5th, how much will they jack up doing that

Yeah, I could see them ruining all sorts of builds, like Battlewagon Bunkers, by making Lootas heavy support.

There are only a few tweaks, the would make orks better.

Well Lootas SHOULD be heavy support. Cmon man, you cant honestly say they dont have a heavy support feel to them. But I would prefer them staying elites, and nobs need to get an option to become flashgits that arnt so over priced people dont want them.

I agree some MUCH needed tweeks would be so much better for Orks. Its starting to feel a bit like Dark Angels codex. They had these ideas for 5th, so wrote them down into a codex, but when 5th dropped, they went WAY over those ideas and just kindda left the previous "idea" dexes sitting around

KingCracker wrote:Well Lootas SHOULD be heavy support. Cmon man, you cant honestly say they dont have a heavy support feel to them. But I would prefer them staying elites, and nobs need to get an option to become flashgits that arnt so over priced people dont want them.

Well, logically the lootas should be heavy, naturally. I just want it understood -- and I do think it's missed -- that if they were in the Heavy Support, one could no longer field three squads in they battlewagons with a KFF big mek providing cover.

KingCracker wrote:I agree some MUCH needed tweeks would be so much better for Orks. Its starting to feel a bit like Dark Angels codex. They had these ideas for 5th, so wrote them down into a codex, but when 5th dropped, they went WAY over those ideas and just kindda left the previous "idea" dexes sitting around

I've only been playing 40K for about a year, and I don't know enough about the history of the editions, but I will share one suspicious about the ramshackle rule for trukks: was it meant to turn busted vehicles into weapons? E.g., if the trukk gets busted, you MIGHT be able to steer it into the enemy? If this were a little more predictable, I wonder how it would change up tactics against ork trukks....

Thats why Im saying they should stay elites, it makes them far more flexible in the army, there is already a crap load of units in the heavy section


As for the trukks, man that would be nice now wouldnt it. But you kind of still can steer it, if you roll a hit on the scatter, so you could move it and stop it within an inch of an enemy unit and still blow up.

Since I'm doing trukky orks I think the only real way I can see an ork list like it having a chance against DE now is for more bikers than trukks. 3 squads worth should make a nice conveniant diversion or will wreck his stuff before you hit home. All those dark lances though... scary...

funny as I JUST read a biker list by MikeNoble on another thread. It uses MSU and its ALOT of units and ALOT of strong shots going at the enemy. Heres the list copy pasted.

Ive gotta say it might do the trick. On a side note, I still havnt played against the new DE, but Ive gotta say they sound nasty.
List

Bikes being bad at CC is irrelevant, since massed Dakkaguns destroy most infantry with ease. The problem with most Biker lists is that they spam bikes. You want to go with MSU in an Ork Biker list so you have enough points for firepower. You can fit 9 Kanz in a biker list, as well as Buggies and Lootas. Check it.

Wazzdakka

14 Lootas
14 Lootas

9 Bikers-Nob w/PK
3 Bikers
3 Bikers
3 Bikers
3 Bikers
3 Bikers

3 Rokkit Buggies
3 Rokkit Buggies
3 Rokkit Buggies

3 Rokkit Kanz
3 Rokkit Kanz
3 Rokkit Kanz


Thats 2000 points. You could probably find a way to get a KFF in, but you'd have to also get a unit on foot for him to be in. either way, even shooty lists will be hard pressed to kill all this. My point is, Bikes are better than Boys because they are faster, shootier, and tougher. Sure they're more expensive, but IMO the good outweighs the bad.

Also, Bikes can screen the Buggies, just thought I'd throw that in.


AND a little side note on how it works by MrDrumMachine
Before you go knocking the list at least look at the truly massive ammount of firepower coming from that list. I mean it's got 72 str 5 that are t/l bs 2, between 28 and 84 str 7 shots, and 22 str 8 that are either t/l bs 2 or bs 3.

Why would you even want to bother with CC when you're throwing so much down range? Not to mention you have 9 DCCW and wazdakka's str 10 PK as well. A lack of PK is not the disadvantage in this list at all. And really anything that can get through a 3+ cover (which the bikes will have unless they're torrenting something) will die very quickly to all the rokkits heading straight (mostly) at it.

If they focus on doing those 24 wounds through 3+ cover I would bet they get tabled frankly.

Heh. One reason why that list is pretty good against DE is that unlike most other armies, your Dakkaguns can actually hurt their vehicles. (Str 5)

I have to say I like how your running your rokkit buggies. In games with enough points I also do the 3x3 rokkit buggies. Usually Ill take 2x3 in smaller games,they just wreck gak. Specially Tyranid MC, they just cant take all those rokkits

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/326051.page I go into what I feel are some major failings of this list here, but if all you want to do is pop AV10 yeah it'll work

There are glaring weaknesses to it sure, but it also could take someone by surprise. If you tool up a list to counter that biker list, sure its fish in a barrel kind of thing, but that goes with any list that is geared to take out a specific build. But I also wouldnt use anything to shield the buggies, unless a KFF was near by. Those things are so damn cheap, they are basically shields that can fire some rokkits at the enemy.

@KingCracker,

Last week you and I talked about the all-biker Wazzdakka list. I was very excited, and started budgeting.

This Sunday, I played the dark eldar with my shooty orks, and though the command-&-control scenario ended in a draw, and I held my own against his fast attacks, I would never have been able to get my boys into the building he had hidden his objective. (On the other hand, he would never have gotten into mine either -- but that's his problem.)

This got me thinking: if bikes can't assault units on the upper storeys or ruins and buildings, how do you take said objectives? Shooting? Ugh.

That's where the trukks come in. You zoom them about and get them into the objectives. Make them all shoota boyz, take a big shoota, then hold your ground. Use the trukk for extra cover and you can hold a position for a turn or two at least I would think.

Pure biker lists would be fast and hell for DE considering all the speed and firepower you can bring that will match their own speed. Ruins and such require either koptas or trukkd boyz; ork shooting is not so great.

I my case, I use Killa Kanz as an assault unit, they aren't scoring, but they can clear off the objective.

Mike Noble wrote:I my case, I use Killa Kanz as an assault unit, they aren't scoring, but they can clear off the objective.

Yea but using Kans as the be all do all isnt really the best choice ALL the time.

@thunderingjove
Whenever you play a game that shows a "problem" with your build its time to sit and think about it. So here the problem is, well bikers are fast and bring alot of nice shooting, but in a game where the objectives are as you stated, they fall short. So how to remedy this? Dont get rid of the bikers because your playing bikers, and although they do have some short comings they are obviously doing well for you. So now you need a support to them. This is why when I run trukks, I use a couple BW and some rokkit buggies for support. The trukk boyz hit hard and fast, but they cant really do it on their own so the buggies are infront as a cheap screen (plus rokkits are just nice amiright?) BUT there is some even scarier guys coming in behind them for counter charge.

So what supports bikers nicely? Im thinking for you to use a support properly they need to be able to go the same speed (or close) anyways. So anything on foot is out, yes the kans are a no go lol. Trukks? Possibly, but trukks pop easy for one, and people just love shooting at them, and you have that whole do I move some and shoot? Do I move to far to cover some distance? But if I do that I cant disembark...... So the answer has to be Stormboyz. Yea they are double the cost of a normal boy, but the threat range is pretty impressive. And they move pretty close to the same speed as bikers, specially if you shooting those bikers. So Id say try and throw in a nice sized mob of stormboyz and have them behind the bikers. That way they get a 4+ cover save from being shot at. They can counter charge anything that attacks the bikers, AND in a situation like you stated, you cant send the bikers upto the 2nd story, but those stormboyz sure can get there. So shoot the holy hell out of whatever is in that building and then assault with the stormboyz.


Sounds good in theory anyways

KingCracker wrote:So the answer has to be Stormboyz.

The trouble (again) is they don't score :( But they would be great too (so many points being thrown around)
I think the list might benifit hugely, from a unit of 20 grots, it means you'll be able to take the home obs without too much hassle or march them forwards over three turns, they will also be able to protect what is a mobile gun line from rear deepstrikes.... Hmm

Gah I cant believe I forgot about them not scoring

Well they would match up nicely if you ignore that detail. Grots really are a fav for objectives holding and whatnot. And hell they do get lucky shooting once in awhile

Stormboys is actually a good solution to the bikes-no-assault-multi-storey dilemma. I had koptas & buggies in my biker list. I'll just drop one of them for the stormboys.

Also, I firmly believe every Ork list could do with 19 grots.

Lootas should be hs, and 20 ork wagons without the big gun should be dedicated transports for any ork unit.

So you want orks to be able to take 12 wagons?.....at 2500 points...

They can already take 8 @ 2500 and it is rarely seen.

schadenfreude wrote:Lootas should be hs, and 20 ork wagons without the big gun should be dedicated transports for any ork unit.

This is a bit of a non sequitur for this thread.

schadenfreude wrote:They can already take 8 @ 2500 and it is rarely seen.

Yes because if forces them to forgo KFF.
What your saying is an esay 10 & 2Kff, I'm sure a wall that long of defrollas would be 'fair' the other reasons one doesn't take 8 is it doesn't actually give target saturation, but with the many one'd only need to expose 4 to shooting, 4 emptyish ones at that!

schadenfreude wrote:Lootas should be hs, and 20 ork wagons without the big gun should be dedicated transports for any ork unit.

The only problem I have with making Lootas HS is they need some adjustments. I agree they definitely feel like a HS choice. I think str7 isnt enough for a heavy, str8 would make me feel better, keep the D3 shots because they are REALLY bad at shooting lol.

But again, making them HS would change MANY tactics, for example people would have to choose, BWs or lootas? Kans or lootas? I like lootas alot, so taking them over a BW is usually a non issue for me, but the thought of dumping kans for lootas? Thats a tuffy. Ive thought about this whole thing alot, and even though they feel more like a HS choice, they really should stay as elites IMO.

KingCracker wrote:The only problem I have with making Lootas HS is they need some adjustments. I agree they definitely feel like a HS choice. I think str7 isnt enough for a heavy, str8 would make me feel better, keep the D3 shots because they are REALLY bad at shooting lol.

It is interesting that the rules writers made lootas strength 7 AP 4; one of the drawbacks is you can't instant-kill multi-wound, feel-no-pain MEQ, damnit. What were lootas like in the previous editions? I understand that they weren't too respected.

KingCracker wrote:But again, making them HS would change MANY tactics, for example people would have to choose, BWs or lootas? Kans or lootas? I like lootas alot, so taking them over a BW is usually a non issue for me, but the thought of dumping kans for lootas? Thats a tuffy. Ive thought about this whole thing alot, and even though they feel more like a HS choice, they really should stay as elites IMO.

I have this problem of choice with my trukk spam: do I take three elite choices AND three fast-attack choices? OR, one elite with buggies or koptas or stormboys? It's quite the conundrum

The first question

In the previous edition lootas were basically Orks that could use actual Imperial weapons, like heavy bolters and the like. The problem is......its the SAME weapon that the SM/IG use......but at BS2......so they were crappy.

The second

When I run my trukk lists, I personally like to use at least 2x3 rokkit buggies to run as cheap screens for the vehicles in front. That way you get a nice drawn out screen for 4+ cover saves, but also it leaves 1 slot for koptas or save it for extra points. The thing with trukk lists is they are worthless wrecked middle of the table with 12 orks running on foot. So you need to use cover as much as possible. So Ill have the buggies stretched out to max for covering the trukks. Ill have the trukks behind them, sometimes with a KFF mek in there for a cover if the buggies explode. Then Ill definitely have a KFF mek with a couple BWs behind those!

That way its basically an army wide cover save, the buggies might even get lucky and shoot a few things down with rokkits, I try to direct all the trukks into one point of the enemy lines, and use the nobs+whatever in the BWs for counter charges as well as going into the hardest stuff. Its pretty much like a 2 stage wave as far as assaults go, and it hits pretty damn hard