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Hello, this thread is started because people completly hampreed my thread when this subject came up.

Keep in mind that you have to focus on the delivery system as well, and since DE are sutch paper pushover it also has to be placed in a contect that is the army list. do not just say "heat lance is so awsome 2D6 penetration, AP 1 so you get a +1 on the damadge chart OMG"

Personaly I am planing on using for my base anti tank:

2x trueborn squads of 5 with 2 DL 220,
3 x 3 DL Ravagers 330,
2 x 5 Scourges with 2 Haywire Blasters 260
6 Reavers with 2 heat lances 156
A total of 966. I think that is enough lance shots, the haywire blasters seems pretty cool with 24" assoult 1. I will also have warriors and wytches on boats. Looks cool.

My top choises for DA anti tank will be the dark lance. Very solid. The heat lance is good if you can get him within 9" and also the haywire blasters witch glance a lott with a good range, something witch is nice for controling/stunning big things.

I am very sceptical haywire grenades vs armour, espesialy dreadnoughts. Witch is the best thing we have in CC since we have no powerfist. We own MC's though due to all the poisen.

Statement 1:

do not just say "heat lance is so awsome 2D6 penetration, AP 1 so you get a +1 on the damadge chart OMG

Statement 2:

the haywire blasters seems pretty cool with 24" assoult 1

Could the author of statement 2 refer to statement 1 please? I'd love to see the justification of haywire blasters vs other options.

So your question is a bit difficult to address:

-how many points are we talking about?

-how many warriors and wyches in boats? The boats and the warriors can both pack AT, as can the wyches (though it's really short ranged and hence I'm not sure on it's viability)

Shure I can refer: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/326996.page

How many points are we talking about? I don't know, I just want my thread back on topic.

As for haywire blasters on scourges, yeah I like them a lott. 12" move and 24" assault range, 2 shots with a movable (as in not heavy) 36" range to stunn down whatever you want to keep at bay while your lances dices up the rest, count me in. Good for deployment in cover or in deep strike, they are pretty crafty. after you wipe out everything mechanical they can move 12" and shoot 9 poisen attacks 18" away.

I was saying that your explanation of haywire blasters was essentially exactly what you said you didn't want.

The follow-up was useful. I don't disagree, and I haven't playtested them yet. But my gut feel is that I'd rather have a pair of heat lances in the scourge unit. They're too easy of a target (jump infantry in a primarily vehicle based list) to walk/jump up the board. Against mech armies, I'd think the heat lance would be better, but as I said, that's gut feel more than anything.

You listed out a "core" anti-tank component to your list. That's great. But 900 pts is significant. If you're playing 1k games, I don't know if it makes sense. At 2000 pts, you can easily 12 AV11 hulls. Or 8-10 chimarae, with vendettas and heavies to taste. Then 900 pts in that loadout may not be enough.

If you want to just talk generally about what the best AT in the DE list is, that's difficult. Everyone loves the 3-4 blaster trueborn in venom, but that's only an effective range of 24", which I'm a bit hesitant to rely on. More dark lances is good, but most of the platforms lack resilience, and that can be problematic against good lists. From my games so far, ravagers seem to work well.

I'm also liking a mix of static warrior squads and their raiders for a couple dark lances from each troop slot. A raider squad with dark lance and sybarite is 195 pts, with a raider with 10 pts in upgrades (whatever you like). Compared to a 20 man squad with 2 dark lances being 240 pts. If you can deploy the warrior squad in cover, you have a nice mix of static and mobile dark lance fire. Would I take six such squads? Of course not. But I do think it may be superior to relying on blasters in forward moving warrior squads for AT.

Haywire blasters seem good in only one situation AV14 monoliths and LRs. And seeing only monoliths are immune to lance tech, Necrons are about the only time the seem useful. For the points I might be better of giving haywire grenades to an elite or a few ICs.

Between Lance tech weapons Blasters, Blast Pistols, Dark Lances and Heat Lances, I just don't see Haywire Blasters offering all that much other than stand-off range. Assuming they both hit 4 in 6 glance won't accomplish much and 1 in 6 pen means you average a pen result only about once every 3 turns of shooting.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote: If you want to just talk generally about what the best AT in the DE list is, that's difficult. Everyone loves the 3-4 blaster trueborn in venom, but that's only an effective range of 24", which I'm a bit hesitant to rely on. More dark lances is good, but most of the platforms lack resilience, and that can be problematic against good lists. From my games so far, ravagers seem to work well.

I do not love the trueborn squad in a venom. I am looking for alternative good squads besides the 10 man lance/blaster on a transport with a lance and the ravagers. Is the 110 point for 2 dark lances and 3 wounds to soak up in the trueborn warrior worth it?

DAaddict wrote:Haywire blasters seem good in only one situation AV14 monoliths and LRs. And seeing only monoliths are immune to lance tech, Necrons are about the only time the seem useful. For the points I might be better of giving haywire grenades to an elite or a few ICs.

Between Lance tech weapons Blasters, Blast Pistols, Dark Lances and Heat Lances, I just don't see Haywire Blasters offering all that much other than stand-off range. Assuming they both hit 4 in 6 glance won't accomplish much and 1 in 6 pen means you average a pen result only about once every 3 turns of shooting.

Just to point out that BT LRC's are also immune to lance effects.

I think Duke Sliscus (or whatever) will be a very common DE army commander. With that in mind, I think deep striking 4 trueborn with 4 blasters in a raider with a dark lance will be a fairly common anti-tank solution. The tri-dark lance ravager, too, is an excellent option.

My problem with things like 5 scourges with 2 special weapons or reavers with 2 special weapons is that they have to get really close to the target to work. This means there's a good chance they will die the following turn. With only two shots, there's a good chance to whiff the "to hit" rolls, or perhaps get a poor damage result. Those short range units have to maximize their chance to kill the target.

DE are pretty fragile, though, so I think it will be key to give as many units as possible some kind of option against armor. We'll see a decent number of haywire grenades, I think, and raider squads with blasters, blasts pistols, and attached characters with blast pistols.

I think deep striking 4 trueborn with 4 blasters in a raider with a dark lance will be a fairly common anti-tank solution.

That's an expensive suicide squad. 108 pts on 4 t3, 5+ save models + the points for the raider, both of which are likely to die. And you have to leave the raider to shoot.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:

I think deep striking 4 trueborn with 4 blasters in a raider with a dark lance will be a fairly common anti-tank solution.

That's an expensive suicide squad. 108 pts on 4 t3, 5+ save models + the points for the raider, both of which are likely to die. And you have to leave the raider to shoot.

With a flicker field on the raider, comes to 178 points. With the deepstrike ability from the Duke and an 18" blaster range, you have a lot of options on where to engage, and 4 blasters are much more reliable on blowing up a vehicle than the other options mentioned. The raider gives you the ability to engage a second target. The warriors dismount, of course, but are they really that much more vulnerable than 5 scourges that only get 2 shots and cost about 130 points?

Haywire blasters in general bug me...they're pretty crappy if you end up playing something with no armor, and they really only glance vehicles most of the time. The suicide-blaster warriors are going to kill vehicles pretty reliably, especially my top target of transports, exposing troops to assault from the other half of my army.

The reavers are a little better, but they cost a lot and still only get two shots. The +3 cover save will help them survive to get into position...except against several enemy types. Flamers will easily kill them, as will mobile assault elements or hydras. They aren't a seer council.

So, the raider + 4 trueborn with blasters costs a bit more, but I think it gives you much more effectiveness overall. 5 lance shots at (potentially) two different targets. Plus, if played in a Duke-style army, you should have several units dropping in together, so target saturation becomes an issue, as you have several small blaster-armed squads that are easy prey and fairly dangerous as well as some dangerous assaulty elements that will hurt you next turn if not dealt with.

I will stick with long range lances: 20 man blob warrior squad w/ lances, 2 ravagers, and maybe 5 scourges hanging back with dark lances.

I thing Grotesques and Beasts will be a great way to take out tanks.

1)Both can come out of a WWP - most likely within charge range of a tank or 2. For range the beasts have a great advantage with their extended charge range and fleet.

2)Many medium str hits - that will strike rear-armor. This is the biggest shooting problem that the DE have - no medium str shots. Heavy bolters, muti-lasers, assault cannons, auto cannons - are great to take out light armor - all of them have multiple shots and the str to do it. Dark lances are good but only 1 shot.

Dark Eldar tend to be quite good at damaging or at least temporarily disabling vehicles since they can take such a massive amount of Lance weapons. This means you'll get to roll on the damage table quite a few times per turn. You're not going to be actually killing vehicles very quickly with the Lances though. Due to how fragile your units and vehicles are, stopping enemy armor from shooting back is a win all on its own. It buys you time to continue to chip away until you find the damage results.

The Heat Lance brings a more devastating, quicker-to-kill weapon to bear that can be very nice up close. You have great speed to get close, but not much resilience once you're there. Relying on Heat Lances would be very foolish due to the fragile nature of the units that can take them. I would include a few if taking the units that have access to them, but I'm not sure that they're expressly necessary.