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Upcoming tournament for me that has a night fighting scenario.

Can a vehicle that uses it's searchlight during night fighting also pop smoke?

Yes.

(There are variations on Searchlight rules in different codexes, but I have not been able to find one that would disallow smoke, and it is allowed to happen otherwise.)

Don't have my codex handy, but I'm pretty sure you can. The only condition for using Smoke Launchers, IIRC, is that you can't shoot. Otherwise, Searchlights should be usable.

Oh...

I totally missed the important part.

Searchlights function when shooting, which smoke prevents.



That would stop them from applying at the same time.

Under the smoke entry in the BRB, it says a vehicle cannot fire weapons if it uses smoke. Is the searchlight considered a weapon?

You have to be able to fire weapons in order to use the searchlight, as it activates when you fire.

Ify ou cannot fire your searchlight will not function.

Indeed, searchlight or smoke not Both

Imperial guard searchlights does not count as shooting.

And smoke launchers only disallows "firing your weapons".

So yes you can use both.

Edit: From what i can see you cant really "spot" units unless you try to shoot them. So its really up to you and ur opponent.

Something has just occurred to me...

In the case of a Land Raider, would the Searchlights be able to be used when firing a weapon from the "Power of the Machine Spirit" ability? Because if you could, then the Land Raider can use it's Smoke Launchers, and then use PotMS to fire and use Searchlights.

My guess is that it would work... Could someone confirm that?

I would like confirmation of that as well since I am putting the searchlight on my Land Raider for this upcoming tournament.

For the original question, for reference, I am using the searchlight from Codex: Blood Angels.

Do I have to do this as a poll?

Ok, just so happened that I did actually have a copy of the C:SM and the BRB around.

Entry for Searchlights:

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target, but having acquired the target, will illuminate it with the searchlight. For the rest of the Shooting phase, any other unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the night fighting special rule. However, a vehicle that uses searchlight, can be targeted during the following enemy turn, as if the night fighting rules were not in effect, as the enemy can see the searchlight."

Entry for Night Fighting:

"After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness"

Entry for Smoke Launchers:

"Once per game, after completing it's move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (it doesn't matter how far it moved). Place some cotton wool or a suitable marker on or around the vehicle to show it is obscured. The vehicle may not fire any weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, but will count as obscured in the next enemy Shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save.

"It is worth pointing out that some armies might use different versions of smoke launchers, which have slightly different rules. As normal, the rules in the codex take precedence."

Entry for Power of the Machine Spirit:

"A Land Raider can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for Shooting."

The wording in all of this, can be confusing and misleading. Specifically, in the "Night Fighting" section, while it doesn't say you need to shoot at the target to use your searchlights, I believe it is implied that in order for Searchlights to be used, the Firing unit must be able to attempt firing. Therefore, if the firing vehicle used Smoke Launchers (or intends to use them), it won't be able to fire, and thus won't be able to use its Searchlights.

However, as it is stated by "Power of the Machine Spirit", since Land Raiders are always able to fire one more weapon than they normally can, I see nothing preventing it from using it's Searchlights as well. Simply put, it doesn't say specifically that if Smoke Launchers are used, then a Searchlight is unusable. Therefore, so long as a vehicle is capable of firing a weapon, Searchlights are absolutely usable.

Now, granted I am using the C:SM, and not Blood Angels, so their Searchlights are exempt from what I've posted. But if they are the same, and my guess is they are, then I'm sure everything I've written applies to them too.

Hope that clears things up. *whew*... I almost feel like Gwar! after making that post.

I don't think that searcjlights are weapons in the first place so no weapon rule should apply other than LoS. I don't see why I can't use my spotlight mounted on my scout sentinel to illuminate a target for my LRMB. Even if my sentinel's weapon can't reach that far the searchlight doesn't have a range limit. So why can't I use my sentinel in a forward observer capacity? The rules just say pick a target and illuminate it. There is no follow up about having to shoot at the target.

you can't pick a target if you can't shoot, and from what it sounds like, you have to pop smoke before hand.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I don't think that searcjlights are weapons in the first place so no weapon rule should apply other than LoS. I don't see why I can't use my spotlight mounted on my scout sentinel to illuminate a target for my LRMB.

I understand completely what you're saying. But if you read "Night Fighting", it is implied (at the very least, I think) that the firing unit should be able to fire before attempting the roll for sight. It's not clear, I know... And we can thank GW for that, but from what I get as far as RAI is concerned, I think the vehicle needs to be able shoot before attempting Searchlights.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Even if my sentinel's weapon can't reach that far the searchlight doesn't have a range limit.

Actually, there is a limit. 2d6 x 3 can't be greater than 36". While there is no written limitation to the usage of Searchlights, there obviously is a mathematical one.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:So why can't I use my sentinel in a forward observer capacity? The rules just say pick a target and illuminate it. There is no follow up about having to shoot at the target.

I'm not familiar with what a "Forward Observer Capacity" does, but if it were to allow you to illuminate a target just as Searchlight would, without needing to shoot anything, then I'd surmise that you can use this ability and activate your Smoke Launchers (if you have them).

I know this has nothing to do with the rules, but have you ever tried to use your high-beams on a car in fog. It doesn't work, you just light up all the fog, you can't see crap. If someone tried this one on me, I would fight them on it. At least a little.

Edit: Added a word.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Even if my sentinel's weapon can't reach that far the searchlight doesn't have a range limit.

Actually, there is a limit. 2d6 x 3 can't be greater than 36". While there is no written limitation to the usage of Searchlights, there obviously is a mathematical one.

You are correct that the maximum site range for a searchlight would be 36". What I was referring to was that the searchlight isn't limited to the maximum range of my weapon(s). So, if I had a vehicle armed with only a template weapon and a searchlight I could still use the searchlight to illuminate an enemy unit that is beyond template range.
As for the forward observer thing I meant that if I had an advanced unit that had a searchlight then I could illuminate an enemy unit. My other units that are farther away could then fire without having to roll the dice.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
Even if my sentinel's weapon can't reach that far the searchlight doesn't have a range limit.

Actually, there is a limit. 2d6 x 3 can't be greater than 36". While there is no written limitation to the usage of Searchlights, there obviously is a mathematical one.

You are correct that the maximum site range for a searchlight would be 36". What I was referring to was that the searchlight isn't limited to the maximum range of my weapon(s). So, if I had a vehicle armed with only a template weapon and a searchlight I could still use the searchlight to illuminate an enemy unit that is beyond template range.
As for the forward observer thing I meant that if I had an advanced unit that had a searchlight then I could illuminate an enemy unit. My other units that are farther away could then fire without having to roll the dice.

I see your point. So by using a unit's Searchlight that has a weapon you can't reach, you take the chance of catching it with the light so other units can shoot at it without harm to them. But that being said, I still think a vehicle that wishes to use it's Searchlight still needs to be able to fire a weapon of some sort at it. Your example is a good example of that. Even though you know a Template weapon won't reach beyond 8", you're still "attempting" to shoot it.

ToBeWilly wrote:I know this has nothing to do with the rules, but have you ever tried to use your high-beams on a car in fog. It doesn't work, you just light up all the fog, you can't see crap. If someone tried this one me, I would fight them on it. At least a little.

lolwut

sorry for rezing an old thread but may I point out that you CANT PotMS with smoke as you said. its in FAQs but searchlights with smoke is NOT FAQed. looks like its "up to you and your opponent" again

Best bet is to ask the TO. You are going to get a valid argument from both sides on whether or not you can use a searchlight after popping smoke.

The way Night Fighting and searchlights are phrased in this edition it's part of shooting.

The SM FAQs forbid using PotMS when you've popped smoke.