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Trying change up my tactical squad weaponry, and wondering what you guys think is the best way to kit them out. Thinking about trying 2 squads of 10 in rhinos, with Missile Launchers, Plasmaguns, and Powerfists (rest of my armyis 3x vindis, 3x typhoons, sniper scouts, lysander and 10x CML termies). Another option is Missile Launcher, Flamer, Combi-melta and powerfist.

What do you guys think about equipping C:SM Tactical squads?

I'd take a drop pod over a rhino. they can shoot the rhino down on your way to the target but once the drop pod drops your guys are there and there isnt anything he can do about it. I would take multi melta melta gun combi melta. or multi melta flamer combi flamer. imo plasmaguns occupy a weird tactical role in 5th and as a general rule can be left out in favor of meltaguns.

If you want to keep them at 10 -man strong, it means your play style involves in moving them most of the time and parking them at objectives.

If so, give them multimeltas and a plasma gun. Both can fire from inside the rhino while parking on an obs. The multimelta generates a 12" no-vehicle radius which can be a good deterrent.

Im not a huge fan of moving 10 bodies just to get into flamer range of something, when you can keep 12" away and rapidfire fire it with bolters and plasmas. - Assuming you decide to go out of the rhino, which is a bad idea most of the time.

The rhino makes sure that your opponent has to crack it, before he can assault or shoot the contents, which is more often enough to buy turns to delay the enemy from driving you away from the objectives.

Powerfists and combi weapons become insurances in this case. They wont hurt, but damn, thats 35 points.

The problem w/ being 12" away is that you will get charged by the enemy next turn. Flamers are best used to thin out hordes before you get stuck in. I tend not to be a fan of plasma in my tac squads, but that may just be personal preference.


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My typical tactical tactical loadout is:

Power Fist, Combi-Weapon (Usually Matching Special), Flamer or Melta, and Missiles.

If I have spare points after making the list I'll consider upgrading to Las Cannon

Why powerfists on sarges? 25 points for 2 base attacks isn't the greatest, low chance of killing hard targets, and low number of kills against infantry. Would rather take a melta bomb and a power sword.

Honestly I just save to points on making tac squads good at CC, you can spend the points better elsewhere.

My full sized tac squads are armed with flamer, missile launcher, and a rhino. At 205 it is a reasonably priced scoring unit (that can combat squad in 2/3 missions to make 2 scoring units). ML is a great multi purpose gun, and the flamer is a last effort gun for when mobs of nids, orks or even IG gets too close. Best of all those two guns don't cost any extra over the relatively high price of the standard marine. I give the sarge a chainsword and bolt pistol, as I don't really care about giving up one bolter shot if it gives me an extra CC attack. Plus it helps me pick out the sarge better since I don't give him anything that costs any points other than the occasional melta bomb.

I see your point botabot, but it seems that as soon as I take my PF off my Sgt, the squad gets tied up with a walker or MC.

Powerfists give Tac squads the ability to threaten things they normally can't engage. Most opponents are less likely to send a HQ choice after a tac squad w/ a powerfist. You are paying for versaitility. Plus having the powerfist means no attacks are lost if you want a combi weapon as well.

Powerfists give the tac squad extra reliability against tanks. That 1 melta shot usually isnt enough. Say hello to 3 PFist attacks.

Like I said its more of an assurance.

notabot187 wrote:Why powerfists on sarges? 25 points for 2 base attacks isn't the greatest, low chance of killing hard targets, and low number of kills against infantry. Would rather take a melta bomb and a power sword.

Honestly I just save to points on making tac squads good at CC, you can spend the points better elsewhere.

agree with this. tac squads will never be good in close combat. don't bother spending the 25 points to make a bad close combat unit into a just sort of bad close combat unit.

I play against CSMs alot with a heavy Nurgle focus so fists have saved my rear many times because rolling 4 to hit and then a 5 to wound doesn't make much win vs. a unit of plague marines. What would you do against MCs, DPs and other high T nasties?

As for loadout...I go plasma gun and plasma cannon and usually combat squad them out with heavy in cover and assault in tl laz or laz/plas razorbacks until they get deshelled and have to assault something. Usually one or two complete squads in rhinos. Nothing ground pounding because that's just asking for trouble.

Yuber wrote:Powerfists give the tac squad extra reliability against tanks. That 1 melta shot usually isnt enough. Say hello to 3 PFist attacks.

Like I said its more of an assurance.

If you are that close, your opponent is probably smart enough to move @ cruising speed. 3 powerfist attacks needing 6s to hit is not good odds at all. The powerfist is a strong piece of equipment, but a cunning opponent can outplay you anyways.

I prefer to keep my 10 man tacticals cheap. Either flamer + ML if you want to drop them off to rapid fire something or flamer + lascannon if you have 10 spare points at the end of your list. There are much better and more cost efficient ways to put anti-tank/MC/dread in your list than a powerfist.

Dracos wrote:

Yuber wrote:Powerfists give the tac squad extra reliability against tanks. That 1 melta shot usually isnt enough. Say hello to 3 PFist attacks.

Like I said its more of an assurance.

If you are that close, your opponent is probably smart enough to move @ cruising speed. 3 powerfist attacks needing 6s to hit is not good odds at all. The powerfist is a strong piece of equipment, but a cunning opponent can outplay you anyways.

I prefer to keep my 10 man tacticals cheap. Either flamer + ML if you want to drop them off to rapid fire something or flamer + lascannon if you have 10 spare points at the end of your list. There are much better and more cost efficient ways to put anti-tank/MC/dread in your list than a powerfist.

Yes, that is exactly the type of reaction you are expecting, which would probably why you would take PFist.

I have taken powerfists in my squads the last few weeks, so far they have killed : Emperors champion, Vulkan, Mepheston, Death Company dreadnought, and numerous vehicles. Defiantly worth the points especially if your stubborn.

Dracos wrote: There are much better and more cost efficient ways to put anti-tank/MC/dread in your list than a powerfist.

But none as cheap. Through combat squading, my heavy weapon sits in cover or in a vehicle while the assault portion of the unit goes hunting. Ensuring redundancy in your list only adds to how competitive it is; the mindset that your predator or dread can take out X opponent only promises failure if your predator/dread is destroyed early on. A pfist is an ace in the hole and has pulled me from the edge of defeat in more than one battle.
YMMV but I always take them but not in every squad.

i do this


i either give the squad a Melta gun or a Flamer.

the Sergeant gets a matching Combi-weapon.

if its a Combi-melta the sergeant gets a Powerfist. if i don't kill a tank with my Melta guns i then charge homw with 3 PF attacks.

if its a combi-flamer he gets a Power Sword. after getting dual flamed i usually charge the remnants and finish them off. it isn't the best combat unit, but good enough for finishing off enemies and the powerweapon makes it more reliable against MEQs.

The squad always gets a Rhino.

i ALWAYS try to give the squad a Lascannon, missile launcher if i can't afford the dirt cheap lascannon(cheapest lascannon in the codex), and split the squad. the lascannon makes a nice vehicle sniper and the squad can sit on home objectives.


IMO: MMs are bunk. a no-go zone for vehicles is nice, but it is a pretty small one at that and the only vehicles that are getting close enough for the MM to be effective are transports. the tanks you want to kill can do their damage from more then 12" away. the only thing that saves the MM for me is that its free so you can't go wrong. the biggest problem is that the missile launcher is also free.

IMHO, it really depends on how you want to prepare the list. There is no sure-fire way of having the best loadout, as against different types of armies, you're going to have different challenges.

Here're my loadouts, for playing against specific armies/situations.

My "All-Comers" Loadout:
1 Meltagun
1 Lascannon
1 Power Fist
Dedicated Transport: Razorback
Total Points: 250

Logic: I combat squad them, and have the Lascannon along with 4 regular Marines hang back and shoot from far, and have the Meltagun and Sgt press forward in the Razorback. This way, I potentially get all of my shots from both my special weapons, and the Sgt. is versatile enough to take on anything.

Against Horde Armies (Tyrannids, Orks, and occasionally IG)
1 Flamer
1 Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter
1 Power Weapon
Dedicated Transport: Rhino
Total Points: 220

Logic: Here is where having all 10 men in the same squad are, IMHO, the most efficient. Ork and Tyranid infantry aren't superb at Anti-tank, and having them (mostly) bunkered in a Rhino will add protection for them as the horde armies approach you. The Flamer template is sure to hit a lot of enemy models, whether you're inside shooting from the Fire Points of the Rhino, or on foot. Either the Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter are viable options here too. The Missile Launcher, however, is more versatile, but if you have enough Anti-Tank coming from other units, you could feasibly go with the Heavy Bolter instead. Power Weapons are a little better than Power Fists here, because against such large quantities of models, you want the extra attack from the CCW (or Bolt Pistol), especially against Orks, where you will be striking at a higher initiative.

Against MEQ, Necrons, (and occasionally IG)
1 Meltagun
1 Plasma Cannon
1 Power Fist
Dedicated Transport: Razorback
Total Points: 245

Logic: Similarly to my "All-Comers Loadout", I combat squad them, and have the Plasma Cannon along with 4 regular Marines hang back and shoot from far, and have the Meltagun and Sgt press forward in the Razorback. Usually, the Plasma Cannon is directed at shooting Terminators and other units of multiple models with at least a 2+ armor save. Power Fist will wound more against MEQ's than Power Weapons.

Against Eldar
1 Flamer
1 Heavy Bolter
1 Power Weapon
Dedicated Transport: Razorback
Total Points: 225

Logic: Similar to my "Anti-Horde Loadout", only here I take a Razorback instead of a Rhino. Reasons being are because Eldar lists tend to be more sophisticated than an Ork or Tyranid list, where there most units are built for rushing forward and charging, Eldar use a balance of both shooting and assaulting, but to a more defined strategy. I combat squad my unit, and separate the special weapons, like in my All-comers list, and have the Sgt. in the Razorback. The vast majority of Eldar are only T3 with a 4+ Armor Save, so most of my weapons will wound on a 3+. A Heavy Bolter will wound on a 2+ without granting an Armor Save as well. Power Weapons will outperform Power Fists because most Eldar will strike at a higher initiative than you, so going at Init 4 or 1 is irrelevant, and since you’re already wounding on a 3+, the extra attack from the CCW (or Bolt Pistol) will increase your chances of causing more wounds.

So there you have it... You'll notice that I rarely use Plasmaguns, and it's not that I don't find them helpful or useful, but I don't think them to be entirely practical on a Tactical Squad. Unless you were to combat squad both the Plasmagun and Heavy Weapon into the same unit, and allow them to shoot from further away, there isn't a tactic that could make use of it as effectively as I've listed in my loadouts.

Of course, that's just my opinion though....

This thread should be in the Army List forum.

Well, don't know if anyone is interested in DA, but they're still tac marines after all.

Here are my general loadouts depending on what I'm facing:

10 men
Meltagun
Missile launcher

10 men
flamer
missile launcher

10 men
plasma
lascannon

the third choice is the one I take the least though.
Rhinos depend on the rest of my army

Grey Templar wrote:IMO: MMs are bunk. a no-go zone for vehicles is nice, but it is a pretty small one at that and the only vehicles that are getting close enough for the MM to be effective are transports. the tanks you want to kill can do their damage from more then 12" away. the only thing that saves the MM for me is that its free so you can't go wrong. the biggest problem is that the missile launcher is also free.

I couldn't agree more. MM's on infantry units are very ineffective, simply just due to their lack of range (which would probably explain why they're one of the three free options to take).

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:IMO: MMs are bunk. a no-go zone for vehicles is nice, but it is a pretty small one at that and the only vehicles that are getting close enough for the MM to be effective are transports. the tanks you want to kill can do their damage from more then 12" away. the only thing that saves the MM for me is that its free so you can't go wrong. the biggest problem is that the missile launcher is also free.

I couldn't agree more. MM's on infantry units are very ineffective, simply just due to their lack of range (which would probably explain why they're one of the three free options to take).

I have never had a range issue with 24". Just gotta position them right.

scubasteve04 wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:IMO: MMs are bunk. a no-go zone for vehicles is nice, but it is a pretty small one at that and the only vehicles that are getting close enough for the MM to be effective are transports. the tanks you want to kill can do their damage from more then 12" away. the only thing that saves the MM for me is that its free so you can't go wrong. the biggest problem is that the missile launcher is also free.

I couldn't agree more. MM's on infantry units are very ineffective, simply just due to their lack of range (which would probably explain why they're one of the three free options to take).

I have never had a range issue with 24". Just gotta position them right.

the problem is positioning them.

the only vehicles that will come within your 12" melta range will be transports and then they will have already done their job so popping them really doesn't do anything.

12-24" is a poor range as well. just as likely to do damage as a Missile launcher here(Ap1 is useless if you don't Glance or Pen) and the big tanks that you want to use the MM on will usually be over 24" away. You will wish you had that missile launcher because tanks like Leman Russes, Hammerheads, and Fire Prisims won'y care if you have a 24" no-go zone around yout Tac squad as they could comfortable nuke you from outside it. they most certaintly would care of you had a missile launcher or a lascannon though.

you have to move a MM to position it and that means it won't be shooting for that turn. that gives your opponent time to either neutralize it or get away.

scubasteve04 wrote:I have never had a range issue with 24". Just gotta position them right.

You sir, are quite lucky then...

While positioning them right obviously matters, I think the issue with positioning them is the fact that it usually involves having to move them to position them right, which means you'd have to forfeit a turn of shooting it. Only situation where I think this would work best is in a Dawn of War setting, and you have the first turn, therefore being able to place the MM infantry up to half way up the board. Otherwise, in most other situations, you're either in your own deployment zone waiting for them to come to you, or you're having to walk them closer towards your target.

Again, not saying it's a bad weapon, just not great on Infantry.

If you are talking about combat squadding them and sticking them in objectives/cover, then absolutly the Missile Launcher or Lascannon is the best choice due to range. If you run squads at full strength all of the time (in a rhino) like I do, then the Multimelta is better. You are not shooting at the beginning anyway, and when you do stop you get a nice anti-tank/heavy infantry/MC weapon to fire with a 24" range.

Yes I know, smart players are not going to be in that 12" 2d6 pen range blah blah blah. Even at 24" the MM still outperforms the Missile Launcher due to AP 1. And this day and age everyone is spamming rhinos/razors/raiders/ ect. Stuff that is easily penned with Str 8 1d6.

however it doesn't matter if you kill those transports at that range. they will have already delivered their cargo.

the exception is Kill Points, but it is an exception.

Your long range support has been firing at those transports, so the ones that made it through can be cleaned up with MMs.

And they are still threats with Dark Lances, Lascannon/TL plasmagun ect.

I agree with the above that multi meltas arent exactly awesome on infantry squads. however they're better than bolters and they're free, so there's no opportunity cost for the upgrade. thats why I would take them in a tac squad. If I ever ran a tac squad. Which I never would : )

Lets look at how effective at destroying transports the 3 main HW shots are if they hit: MM at 12-24 range, and the ML and LC at any range below 48.

Against AV 10: ML ~ 21 percent MM ~ 33 percent LC ~ 28 percent

Against AV 11: ML ~ 17 percent MM ~ 25 percent ~ LC ~ 22 percent

Against AV 12: ML ~ 11 percent MM~ 17 percent LC ~ 17 percent

So the MM is quite a bit better than the ML in destroyed percentages, and marginally better than the LC at AV 10 and 11.

I didn't bother calculating the MM at below 12, since it is by far the better gun, and its not to common that an enemy puts their transports in such obvious harms way.

So the issue comes down to range, and how you plan on using your unit, and how it interacts with your list.

Lascannons and ML are fine long range standoff weapons. What they don't do is deny parts of the board. A MM creates a 24 inch bubble that the enemy doesn't commit units without risk, and a 12 inch high risk zone.

MM are not a first turn weapon, they are turn 2+ weapon.

If you go first, you move into midfield, and either get out into cover, or pop smoke. Your opponent then has the problem of a midfield zone where it is very dangerous to move about. Midfield is NOT where anybody wants their short range or assault units dumped out at. Esp. when all they have to kill is a tac squad in a rhino.

Going second means that you have to be more aggressive in using your rhino hulls to block movement lanes. Since your first shot will be after your opponent has moved up to 24 inches, you need to try to keep your enemy away from the juicy back line units they are going for. Can be difficult, but the easy step is to keep your back line units away from the deployment line... Going second gives you the option of not even starting in the rhino, since you can just move 6 and use the rhino as a mobile terrain piece/blocking unit.

This all assumes the enemy is coming to you... which you can't rely on in all honesty. So if you take MM in your tacs, make sure there is long range anti tank elsewhere. (like AC/LC preds, dreds, and dev squads) SM can be a deadly army at 24 inches, but you got to have the long range units to force action.

notabot187 wrote:This all assumes the enemy is coming to you... which you can't rely on in all honesty. So if you take MM in your tacs, make sure there is long range anti tank elsewhere. (like AC/LC preds, dreds, and dev squads)

To reemphasize what you said here, everything is indeed situational. Situational on what army you're playing against, and how your list is written. In the end, for a balanced list (ie - All-Comers List), the safest bet is to either go with the Lascannon or Missile Launcher, for the well covered range it provides.

notabot187 wrote: Lascannons and ML are fine long range standoff weapons. What they don't do is deny parts of the board. A MM creates a 24 inch bubble that the enemy doesn't commit units without risk, and a 12 inch high risk zone.

Now, to reemphasize what Grey Templar said, having a MM in midfield is only helpful in a Kill Points game. Assuming the Rhino with the MM makes it midfield, pops smoke, and manages to survive the coming turn, any enemy vehicle within 12-24" is more than likely already where they intend on stopping, and thus accomplishing it's goal of transporting the cargo/infantry. Again, completely situational, but if I were the guy playing against someone bringing 2-3 Rhinos with MM's in them, I wouldn't feel all too threatened by them. In truth, I'd probably roll right up to face them, and attempt shooting at them with my other Anti-Tank units from my backline. If all goes well, I get to Rapid Fire on the unit that just got out of the Rhino I wrecked/blew up with my Missile Launcher/Lascannon Devastator Squad.

notabot187 wrote:MM are not a first turn weapon, they are turn 2+ weapon.

Only true in the case of Infantry, which brings me back to my point about them being less effective on them.

notabot187 wrote:SM can be a deadly army at 24 inches, but you got to have the long range units to force action.

Personally, I think SM are deadly at all ranges when played to it's optimal capacity. It's more of a matter of how you build your list and how your units compliment and work off of each other.

Generaly I run 3 10 man tac squads

2 PF MG MSL las/plas Razorback
1 PW FL PC Razorback