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Battlefleet Maruran

I currently have:

Battleships x 4
2 Emperors
1 Retribution
1 Apocalypse

Battlecruisers x 3
1 Overlord
1 Mars
1 Maruran (all lance)

Cruisers x 10
2 Dominators
2 Dictators
4 Lunars
1 Tyrant
1 Gothic (ad mech)

Light Cruisers x 5
1 Endeavor class (ad mech)
3 Lance Dauntless
1 Torp Dauntless

Escorts, destroyers and frigates x 39
3 Falchions
21 Swords
15 Cobras


Starbase:
1 Ramilies Class Star Fortress

I want a full sector battlefleet. Do I have one yet or am I dreaming and I need millions of ships? I can't seem to find an actual listed size?

I'm going to say that it might be a lot larger. Perhaps taking a look at the fleets of WW2 and their composition to maybe get a sense of the number of escorts and cruisers to battleships.

Then maybe take a look at either the US Pacific Fleet of WW2 or the Royal Navy protecting England. That's the size that I'm thinking is a Battlefleet.

Just my three cents.

The Imperium does nothing small.

If you include the support vessels, I'd guess you need thousands of ships. Maybe tens of thousands.

I think you are actually pretty much in the right range. Of course all depends as not all sectors are created equal.

Page 86 of the BFG rule book has text stating that a sector fleet is between 50-75 ships, but varies depending on the size and importance of the sector. The text makes clear that this number would include all ships down to destroyer size, so your collection is right there at about 60 ships.

We may also imagine that a sector's fleet would swell with reinforcements once a full scale war starts. One of the better clues we have is in the fluff text next to the profile for the Lunar class cruiser that states that there are 600 Lunar class ships in the whole Segmentum, and 20 saw service in the Gothic War. So, if we extrapolate that out to the other 4 cruiser classes, we might say that as many as 100 cruiser/battle cruiser sized saw action in the Gothic Sector (and it is also possible that there were more that were in the sector, but never saw major action).

So, while specific numbers are difficult to pin down, it does appear that the fluff points to fleets of hundreds rather than thousands (or millions!) of ships.

Ruckdog wrote:Page 86 of the BFG rule book has text stating that a sector fleet is between 50-75 ships, but varies depending on the size and importance of the sector. The text makes clear that this number would include all ships down to destroyer size, so your collection is right there at about 60 ships.
So, while specific numbers are difficult to pin down, it does appear that the fluff points to fleets of hundreds rather than thousands (or millions!) of ships.

Ah, excellent. So I'm there. I might get a few support ships or grand cruisers and possibly some seconded marine barges/strike cruisers.

Ah nice find Ruckdog! I misread the OP and thought he meant Segmentum and not Sector.

Also 50-75 ships includes destroyers, frigates, cruisers and battleships.
Per page 86 of the rulebook.

The largest are supposedly the Bastion Fleets (Cadia, Agripinaa, Scarus, and Corona), which it's implied have more ships then men and extensive mothballed stockpiles. (Armada, 28)

One of the things I've never understood about 40k is the idea that 50-75 ships could effectively control more then a few systems.

Hell, Hipper had more then that at Jutland and he was outnumbered by the Royal Navy.

If you look at fleets from the WWI period, which seems to be what IN runs off of:

2 Battleships per battlecruiser
1 heavy cruiser per battlecruiser
3 cruisers or light cruisers per battlecruiser
10 escorts per battlecruiser


Note: Yes, this means that Battleships were almost as common as Cruisers. The Royal Navy at the time liked it's battleships, and everyone else built a whole lot of them too, as they were the 'superweapon' of the day. (So yes, real militaries unit spam too)

In all honesty: given the sheer volume of a sector (200ly on a side) even if you crank fear, paranoia, and all the other things that the Imperium supposedly runs on up from 11 to, say 25: you'd never be able to control that much space with this many ships. 50-75 ships would probably be just what would be based near the sector capitol)

Hence why the Imperium always gets hammered whenever a sizable force wants to do anything to it. They're just spread too thin.

You miss all subspace craft who protect worlds, stations etcetera. They make up for largest bulk.

horizon wrote:You miss all subspace craft who protect worlds, stations etcetera. They make up for largest bulk.

Indeed! A system will have all sorts of sub-light craft for defense that were either built there or ferried there by larger warp-capable craft. Also remember that in that 200 ly cube not all of the systems will be occupied by the Imperium, and even fewer of those will become targets of predation.

Field Mouse's point also stands that the IN is spread quite thin in most areas; this is why we hear of massive reinforcements every time serious trouble shows up in an Imperial sector!

I might point out that those in system craft don't seem to have much effect on warp capable warships if fluff is any measure (to the point it's a 'why do they bother?').

After all, it takes hundreds of them (and a battlecruiser) to do enough damage to cripple a single ship in Traitor's Hand.

Even the SDF monitor in Blue Book is just a speed bump. It has great firepower, but is so slow and has such short range that they rarely get a shot off (even against some of the slowest warp capable ships). In fluff they manage to harry an incoming fleet, but are forced to disengage in the face of a pair of frigates.

The only case in fluff I could find that any sort of planetary SDF boat gives a warp capable warship anything more then chipped paint (if that) was Rogue Star, and then a set of three sdf gunboats that have been heavily modified by the tau give a undermanned RT cruiser and two escorts a hard time. (until Deus Ex Machina saves the day)

Mind you, by heavily modified they seemingly out run, out gun, and out armor a cruiser and two escorts. I suspect the name of their new ship class was 'plot'.

Oh yes they do have a lot effect I think. At least to deal with the common pirate actions.

Full scale warfleets by enemies is when it is time to call the Imperial Navy. A ponderous machine. But once in order...

It is the same principle with the IG, really. The bigger the threat and the deeper it pushes into imperial space, the bigger the response mobilized against it will be.

Baron Iveagh: I would be very careful citing examples of space combat in BL books. The depictions in most of them are a bit shaky when compared to BFG, to say the least (in the same way that some of the books depict ground combat very differently than the way it plays out in 40k). Execution Hour is one of the few novels that closely follow BFG. The Rogue Trader RPG rule book section on star ships is also pretty decent (the author has said in interviews that he used the BFG rulebook extensively when writing it), although the size of the crews listed for various classes of ships are significantly greater than what was alluded to previously.

Its freaking huge, thats I can say about the fleet.

horizon wrote:Oh yes they do have a lot effect I think. At least to deal with the common pirate actions.

Full scale warfleets by enemies is when it is time to call the Imperial Navy. A ponderous machine. But once in order...

Unfortunately, we're not talking full scale war fleets. In the first Ultramarines novel, a single Dark Eldar ship effectively nullifies the entire SDF at Pavonis.

Ruckdog:

Conversely, remember that BFG is adjusted for game play, rather then fluff. As many people like to point out, a single space marine is a one man army, but in 40k, it takes dozens of them to stop a handful of guardsmen.

To use in game fluff from BFG's own books and from Forge World: single ships pwn whole systems. The fluff in RT vaguely implies indirectly that a single cruiser and escort are quite commonly able to brush aside the defenses of an entire solar system. Bl pretty much makes a point of that fact.

The problem is that, as is pointed out in fluff, the Navy spreads itself so thin that it might be centuries between regular patrol visits to a system. My statement is that this would not work. They would not be able to maintain control if they were spread this thin.

Well, that is some fluff that I'm not aware of, TBH. The way I've understood it is that the Imperium really only has a presence in a relatively few major systems within a sector, and that the fleet patrols between these systems along well defined, beaconed channels through the Warp. As a result, patrols come along (and reinforcements can arrive) in a span of months or years, rather than centuries.

As far as a single ship taking down a whole system, I would say that, again, it depends on the system. Port Maw, as it is described, would be fairly impervious from all but the largest of invasion fleets. Some out of the way agri-world, on the other hand, might very well fall to a relative handful of ships.

I agree that there seems to be a lot of deviation between 40k the game and 40k fluff. That being said, I feel that BFG is in a different category, where the game play and the fluff offered in the rule book are still relatively aligned and are the primary source of how the Imperial Navy is structured and how space combat "works" in the 40k universe. To me, a lot of the descriptions of space combat and fleet actions that are found in the BL novels are to be taken with a grain of salt. Some of these scenes are pretty good, some of them are okay, and some are down-right wince inducing.

Ruckdog wrote:Well, that is some fluff that I'm not aware of, TBH. The way I've understood it is that the Imperium really only has a presence in a relatively few major systems within a sector, and that the fleet patrols between these systems along well defined, beaconed channels through the Warp. As a result, patrols come along (and reinforcements can arrive) in a span of months or years, rather than centuries.

As far as a single ship taking down a whole system, I would say that, again, it depends on the system. Port Maw, as it is described, would be fairly impervious from all but the largest of invasion fleets. Some out of the way agri-world, on the other hand, might very well fall to a relative handful of ships.

I agree that there seems to be a lot of deviation between 40k the game and 40k fluff. That being said, I feel that BFG is in a different category, where the game play and the fluff offered in the rule book are still relatively aligned and are the primary source of how the Imperial Navy is structured and how space combat "works" in the 40k universe. To me, a lot of the descriptions of space combat and fleet actions that are found in the BL novels are to be taken with a grain of salt. Some of these scenes are pretty good, some of them are okay, and some are down-right wince inducing.

Well, yes, hitting Port Maw or Hydraphur or Sol (particularly Sol) would be a bit difficult. Port Maw does have no fewer then four Star Forts as part of it's defenses and is the hub of IN operations in the entire Segmentum, making it one of the five most vital military installations in the Imperium. So, yes, it will be heavily guarded. (I bet they have two whole SQUADS of Space Marines)

BFGM provided two more powerful system defense ships in the Enforcer and Punisher class light cruisers.

However, there are even more heavily armed examples in the Exorcist Grand Cruiser entry. A squadron of them was assigned to a penal world. That's quite a bit of oomph there for system defense.

However, if you only have 50-75 ships in the sector, how do you deploy 2-3 ships of the line to guard a single penal world? Using Calixis as an example, since we have the most data on it, they have a few worlds under interdiction, which requires ships to be posted, you have anti-pirate details, you have regular military operations, you have the sector capitol to safeguard, AND they're supporting a crusade AND they're running patrols into nearby areas of Wildspace.

And the best part is that if you ask how many planets are in a sector, they respond Hundereds! Maybe Thousands! (at least over at FFG) and if you ask how many ships: 'Oh, a few dozen or so.' Plus it takes even a fast ship days to go from the outer system (where entering warp space is safer, I guess.) to the inhabitable parts of the system.

And then we have the Processional of the Damned...

Admittedly, it isn't probably just pulling ships from the local area, however... it's an accretion disk that takes in the orbits of three planets and is (largly) made of wrecked star ships! Even if each of them was the size of the Divine Right, that's over 900 trillion (metric, not imperial[pun!]) star ships. And they have to have come from somewhere.

I kinda like the few Imperials per sector.

Yeah, but it doesn't make sense. During the Gothic war, a gang of pirates were able to round up around 75 escorts and escort equivalents and a trio of cruisers.

I have a hard time picturing pirates being their own sector fleet.

BaronIveagh wrote:Yeah, but it doesn't make sense. During the Gothic war, a gang of pirates were able to round up around 75 escorts and escort equivalents and a trio of cruisers.

I have a hard time picturing pirates being their own sector fleet.

Yeah. As Do I.
What are the Somalia pirates? They must of been lead by one person.... Captain Cartmen!

But yeah 3 Cruisers? Really? Pirates? Having a good fleet oh please!

It would tend to indicate that there are more ships then 70 or so at hand.

That's true, during the Gothic War there would have been more than 70 due to all of the reinforcements that were being sent from neighboring sectors.

However, that does point out a big hole in our knowledge on a sector fleet; the ratio of the various ship types. My guess is that 70 escorts does not a sector fleet make, but we certainly have no real evidence to the contrary!

Ruckdog wrote:That's true, during the Gothic War there would have been more than 70 due to all of the reinforcements that were being sent from neighboring sectors.

However, that does point out a big hole in our knowledge on a sector fleet; the ratio of the various ship types. My guess is that 70 escorts does not a sector fleet make, but we certainly have no real evidence to the contrary!

Actually, this took place before the reinforcements got there. It's in the fluff on the Gothic War in blue book. (nor did it include orks or eldar, who had their own operations going)

BaronIveagh wrote:

Ruckdog wrote:That's true, during the Gothic War there would have been more than 70 due to all of the reinforcements that were being sent from neighboring sectors.

However, that does point out a big hole in our knowledge on a sector fleet; the ratio of the various ship types. My guess is that 70 escorts does not a sector fleet make, but we certainly have no real evidence to the contrary!

Actually, this took place before the reinforcements got there. It's in the fluff on the Gothic War in blue book. (nor did it include orks or eldar, who had their own operations going)

Well... The Gothic War does mention, in ship descriptions, several ships secunded from other sectors and also... Wasn't most of the Chaos side made up of a number of Imperial Navy ships that defected? Again looking at the ship descriptions, many were mentioned as betraying, by name and at least one mentioned the name of the captain of the ship (might have been the killfrenzy, am away from my books atm).

So if many of the enemy ships were defections from reserve fleets or older Gothic Sector patrols and battlegroups, that also changes the nature of the sizes.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Ruckdog wrote:That's true, during the Gothic War there would have been more than 70 due to all of the reinforcements that were being sent from neighboring sectors.

However, that does point out a big hole in our knowledge on a sector fleet; the ratio of the various ship types. My guess is that 70 escorts does not a sector fleet make, but we certainly have no real evidence to the contrary!

Actually, this took place before the reinforcements got there. It's in the fluff on the Gothic War in blue book. (nor did it include orks or eldar, who had their own operations going)

Well... The Gothic War does mention, in ship descriptions, several ships secunded from other sectors and also... Wasn't most of the Chaos side made up of a number of Imperial Navy ships that defected? Again looking at the ship descriptions, many were mentioned as betraying, by name and at least one mentioned the name of the captain of the ship (might have been the killfrenzy, am away from my books atm).

So if many of the enemy ships were defections from reserve fleets or older Gothic Sector patrols and battlegroups, that also changes the nature of the sizes.

According to Bluebook, Abby invaded with somewhere between 7 to 20 fleets, each consisting over over a dozen capitol ships and most are described as having two or so battleships (not counting the cruisers that seem to have broken off and raided at random.), plus the sector was cut off by warp storms. According to fluff, a few dozen IN ships defected, though an exact number is unclear. (blue book in hand) Ravensburg seems to favor a strategy of raiding and trying to destroy the foe in detail, without a great deal of luck initially. It was not until after the Eldar aided Ravensburg that the warp storms abated and IN reinforcements could get in.