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Hi all.

Just a doubth.

Creating a unit formed by 2 Carnifexes and 2 Tyranid Primes, supposing to well field them, they will gain a 4+ cover save even in open spaces?
Thanks to the rule << half of the unit in cover = the complete unit in cover >> ??



thank you
Ivan

I'm not sure what your question is - if its "if I have a unit comprised of 2 warriors and 2 carnifexes, if the warriors are in cover, do the carnifexes (carnifexi?) Get cover saves?"

If that's the question, the answer is yes.

In this case ok, it's clear.

My question is.. imagine in the central part of the table, with absolutely no scenic elements, thank to the "cover" that the Fexes give to the Tyr.Primes the entire heterogeneous unit will profit by a 4+ cover save?

A unit cannot provide cover for itself.

Page 22 Exceptions, Own unit. Models can always shoot AND BE SHOT AT. through members of their own unit without conferring a coversave.

And that's all folks.

Thank you


But, just in example:

take a look at this deployment scheme.

Hive Guard - Hive Guard
Tyr. Prime - Tyr. Prime - Carnifex - Carnifex

the Primes+Fexes is a unit and with the 2 Primes "hidden" by the Guards (another unit) they'll gain a 4+ cover save.

Right? In this case?

Rulebook p.51 Monstrous Creatures / Shooting / 2nd paragraph

"for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on p.16) has to be in cover fro the point of view of the majority of the firing models."

This seems to show that an MC cannot be in cover simply because half its unit is in cover.

So MC rules ignore any other exception gived by Cover universal rules?

Edit:

You're right, at page 51 it simply say that we should consider MC cover just like for vehicles.
SO, page 62, half of the vehicles must be in cover, the 50% rule is alwais prioritary.

BUT this give us another case.

If the Primes are just ahead the Carfinexes? Supposing the Primes cover 50% of the Fexes the unit will NOW have a cover of 4+ thanks to the accomplishment of the following 2 rules in the same time?
- MC covered for at least 50% (4+)
- with MC having the cover save = half of the unit in cover = all the unit members have 4+ cover save?


what do you think?

It seems to me that MCs have a special section of rules, which makes exceptions to the general core rules.

Just repost partially the edit I added to the previous message:

You're right, at page 51 it simply say that we should consider MC cover just like for vehicles.
SO, page 62, half of the vehicles must be in cover, the 50% rule is alwais prioritary.

BUT this give us another case.

If the Primes are just ahead the Carfinexes? Supposing the Primes cover 50% of the Fexes the unit will NOW have a cover of 4+ thanks to the accomplishment of the following 2 rules in the same time?
- MC covered for at least 50% (4+)
- with MC having the cover save = half of the unit in cover = all the unit members have 4+ cover save?


what do you think?

Just because the Carnifexes aren't in cover doesn't mean they don't get the save if the rest of their unit is.

The MC 50% rule only applies to whether the Carnifex is actually in cover, not whether they get the save. Just like if an infantry model is in clear terrain, it still gets a cover save if enough members of its unit are in cover. (The model itself is not in cover, but it still gains the benefit of the save).

Carnifex + 2 Primes in cover grants cover to the 'Fexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toban wrote:Just repost partially the edit I added to the previous message:

You're right, at page 51 it simply say that we should consider MC cover just like for vehicles.
SO, page 62, half of the vehicles must be in cover, the 50% rule is alwais prioritary.

BUT this give us another case.

If the Primes are just ahead the Carfinexes? Supposing the Primes cover 50% of the Fexes the unit will NOW have a cover of 4+ thanks to the accomplishment of the following 2 rules in the same time?
- MC covered for at least 50% (4+)
- with MC having the cover save = half of the unit in cover = all the unit members have 4+ cover save?


what do you think?

Doesn't matter. If both primes are in cover at all, the fexes get their cover save even if they're completely in the open. Read the rest of my post. Kilkrazy's got it wrong here.

(At least) half a unit able to claim cover saves means the whole unit can claim cover saves.

MC rules prevent the MC models from claiming cover without (at least) 50% obscurment, but it does not prevent the unit from claiming cover saves when half of the unit (or more) can claim cover saves.

This is the same reason Tyrant Guard have any use in that regard.

So the prevuois case, as follow, we'll be right..


line of sight in this direction-->
HIVE GUARD - Prime
HIVE GUARD - Prime
Fex
Fex


And just by consequence even this one:
alwais with the LOS in this direction -->
Fex - Prime
Fex - Prime

Kilkrazy wrote:It seems to me that MCs have a special section of rules, which makes exceptions to the general core rules.

MCs have special rules for qualifying for a cover save. Unit cover save rules still apply. (see the many discussions abouts tyrants and tguard)

Thank you

Kilkrazy wrote:Rulebook p.51 Monstrous Creatures / Shooting / 2nd paragraph

"for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on p.16) has to be in cover fro the point of view of the majority of the firing models."

This seems to show that an MC cannot be in cover simply because half its unit is in cover.

That shows that in order to determine whether a given MC model is in cover, it has to be actually obscured. But that doesn't affect how you determine if the unit gets a cover save.

You determine if the unit gets a cover save by determining how many of the individual models are in cover. If any of those individual models are MC's, you determine if they are in cover by checking if they are at least 50% obscured.

So a unit of MCs or a unit of mixed MCs and non-MCs will get a cover save if at least half of the unit is in cover, just like any other unit.

Toban wrote:So the prevuois case, as follow, we'll be right..


line of sight in this direction-->
HIVE GUARD - Prime
HIVE GUARD - Prime
Fex
Fex


And just by consequence even this one:
alwais with the LOS in this direction -->
Fex - Prime
Fex - Prime

First part is right, Hive Guard give cover to unit. Second part is wrong, as unit can't give cover to itself. You ignore the Prime for the purposes of looking at the Carnifex.

insaniak wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Rulebook p.51 Monstrous Creatures / Shooting / 2nd paragraph

"for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on p.16) has to be in cover fro the point of view of the majority of the firing models."

This seems to show that an MC cannot be in cover simply because half its unit is in cover.

That shows that in order to determine whether a given MC model is in cover, it has to be actually obscured. But that doesn't affect how you determine if the unit gets a cover save.

You determine if the unit gets a cover save by determining how many of the individual models are in cover. If any of those individual models are MC's, you determine if they are in cover by checking if they are at least 50% obscured.

So a unit of MCs or a unit of mixed MCs and non-MCs will get a cover save if at least half of the unit is in cover, just like any other unit.

That is one interpretation. Another is that the specific rules for MCs overrule the general rules for units.

What does the FAQ say?

Kilkrazy wrote:That is one interpretation. Another is that the specific rules for MCs overrule the general rules for units.

What does the FAQ say?

The FAQ is irrelevent and does not cover it, as the main rules do so.

MC use vehicles rules for cover (the 50% rule), which for units of/containing MCs would be the Squadron rules.

From page 64, "use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron member is in cover. . .and then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not"

So I am confused as to what how you would interpret that to be that each model needs to have 50% cover to get a cover save in a unit that has more than 50% of the models in cover.

Kilkrazy wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Rulebook p.51 Monstrous Creatures / Shooting / 2nd paragraph

"for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on p.16) has to be in cover fro the point of view of the majority of the firing models."

This seems to show that an MC cannot be in cover simply because half its unit is in cover.

That shows that in order to determine whether a given MC model is in cover, it has to be actually obscured. But that doesn't affect how you determine if the unit gets a cover save.

You determine if the unit gets a cover save by determining how many of the individual models are in cover. If any of those individual models are MC's, you determine if they are in cover by checking if they are at least 50% obscured.

So a unit of MCs or a unit of mixed MCs and non-MCs will get a cover save if at least half of the unit is in cover, just like any other unit.

That is one interpretation. Another is that the specific rules for MCs overrule the general rules for units.

What does the FAQ say?

This has nothing to do with rules overriding other rules. It has to do with the fact that models that are not in cover can get a cover save if more than 50% of their unit can claim cover. Being "in cover" and being eligible to use a cover save are two completely separate concepts in 40k. A model (regardless of type, the MC rules do not change this IN THE SLIGHTEST) can use a cover save if 50% or more of its unit is "in cover." Normal models are "in cover" if any part are obscured. Monstrous Creatures are "in cover" if 50% of their body is obscured.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this, it's really quite simple.

I find it quite complicated.

I understand the explanation, however I didn't find it at all easy to develop it myself through reference to the rules.

It requires reference to the already rather complex cover rules, the rules of independent characters, which refer to the special rules, which aren't properly defined, the rules on MCs, which refer to the vehicle cover rules, and the squadron rules.

That is why specific references are so useful.

In the example of a unit of two Carnifexes and two Tyranid Primes behind a unit of Termagaunts-
The Carnifexes need to be 50% concealed (p51 and p62) to get a cover save. The Termagaunts won't give the Carnifexes cover.
The Tyranid Primes are in cover thanks to the Termagaunt unit (p21, Intervening models and p22, Firing through units).
Half the unit is in cover, half is not.

That's dealt with on p22, "Units partially in cover"
Sometimes, a unit will only partially be in cover... In this case, you must decide if the majority of the unit is in cover.
If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of it's models may take cover saves.

So the unit gets a cover save.

"If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of it's models may take cover saves." P22

The rule above is referred to in the vehicle squadron section.
"use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron member is in cover and the the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not". P64

The MC rules section goes on to say
"Cover for them works exactly as for vehicles" P51 and we know that units of multiple vehicles use the same rules as normal units.

So we know that units composed of monstrous creatures, vehicles and everything else all use the same rule (p22, quoted above) to determine if the unit has a cover save despite using different methods to determine if the models have cover saves.