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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/13 06:26:58
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion to deficit, panel finds By Lori Montgomery Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, August 12, 2010 A Republican plan to extend tax cuts for the rich would add more than $36 billion to the federal deficit next year -- and transfer the bulk of that cash into the pockets of the nation's millionaires, according to a congressional analysis released Wednesday. New data from the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation show that households earning more than $1 million a year would reap nearly $31 billion in tax breaks under the GOP plan in 2011, for an average tax cut per household of about $100,000. The analysis, requested by Democrats on the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee, comes as debate heats up over tax cuts enacted during the Bush administration, most of which are scheduled to expire at the end of this year. Republicans want to extend all the cuts, which would cost the Treasury Department $238 billion in 2011, according to the taxation committee. President Obama and congressional Democrats have vowed to extend the cuts only for families making less than $250,000 a year and individuals making less than $200,000 -- 98 percent of American taxpayers -- in a plan that would add about $202 billion to next year's deficit. Given the soaring national debt, many economists deem both proposals unaffordable. Even some Republicans, including Reagan administration budget chief David Stockman and former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan, have urged lawmakers to let them expire and allow income tax rates to pop back up to their levels during the Clinton administration. Obama campaigned on a pledge not to raise taxes for the middle class, however. And with midterm congressional elections in November, few politicians in either party are calling for full repeal. Instead, lawmakers are gearing up for a battle when they return to Washington in September over the small fraction of the tax breaks that benefit the nation's richest families. Both sides are eager to engage that fight on the eve of the election. Democrats see a political advantage in accusing Republicans of holding tax breaks for the middle class "hostage" in order to get tax cuts for the wealthy, though it's not clear that GOP lawmakers would in fact block extension of the middle-class cuts if they were offered alone. Republicans accuse Democrats of plotting one of the biggest tax hikes in American history, arguing that raising taxes on wealthy households would punish the very people capable of creating jobs, spurring economic growth and reducing the 9.5 percent unemployment rate. About half of all small-business income is reported on the individual returns of people making over $250,000 a year, according to the taxation committee's data, though those taxpayers represent only about 3 percent of small businesses. "We cannot forget that a lot of those people are small businesses," said Sage Eastman, a spokesman for Rep. Dave Camp (Mich.), the senior Republican on Ways and Means. "The American people don't want them paying higher taxes -- they want them hiring more people." Democrats counter that wealthy households would receive a tax benefit under their plan. The joint committee analysis shows that million-dollar households would continue to receive an average tax break of about $6,300 next year compared with full repeal -- significantly more than the average break of about $1,100 that would go to families making less than $200,000 a year, according to the taxation committee. Despite that bit of news, the nation's 315,000 millionaires are unlikely to feel grateful; the joint committee said their overall federal tax rate would jump to about 29.9 percent under the Democratic plan, compared with 24.6 percent if all the tax cuts were extended.  Be a tea party republican, keep your government hands off of my millions and millions.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/13 06:27:26
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/13 06:33:23
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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Nigel Stillman
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I'm sorry, though very liberal in my social and economic views I cannot take that graph seriously.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/13 06:46:47
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Ma55ter_fett wrote:I'm sorry, though very liberal in my social and economic views I cannot take that graph seriously.
Is it because of the balls?
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/13 08:13:02
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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I don't know about you guys but i always take my balls seriously.
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/15 16:44:41
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Ma55ter_fett wrote:I'm sorry, though very liberal in my social and economic views I cannot take that graph seriously.
I agree. They are both fairly close to one another and then POW around the 500+ mark. Its almost triple the dems? In one bracket? That seems a bit much. Then the 1,000,000+ its a little more then 16x greater? Again thats just one bracket on that graph. Seems a bit.......... biased?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/15 16:54:40
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Actually those under 200k are better off under the democrats, world recession included. That's really very impressive.
Seems a good thing that those with least are given a break and those with large incomes see and increase of taxation, especially as we arrive at that million mark.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/15 20:08:03
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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mattyrm wrote:I don't know about you guys but i always take my balls seriously.
We've discussed this before. We all take your balls seriously.
KingCracker wrote:Ma55ter_fett wrote:I'm sorry, though very liberal in my social and economic views I cannot take that graph seriously.
I agree. They are both fairly close to one another and then POW around the 500+ mark. Its almost triple the dems? In one bracket? That seems a bit much. Then the 1,000,000+ its a little more then 16x greater? Again thats just one bracket on that graph. Seems a bit.......... biased?
Why the surprise? The Republicans feel the very rich pay to much in taxes and so when given the chance are going to give them the biggest cut because you can't really cut to much from the others as they don't have as much to give or receive as the multimillionaires. It isn't really a question of bias but whether you think the rich are being over taxed.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/16 06:10:44
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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Tunneling Trygon
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It isn't really a question of bias but whether you think the rich are being over taxed.
While I tend to greet anything Shuma posts with a great deal of skepticism, and thus presume his ball based argument/graphic is a huge lie, I've never really understood the Republican fascination with not-progressive taxation.
I mean, I realize that they want to make rich people happy, like all politicians, but there really aren't that many rich people, so cutting their taxes isn't going to have a great deal of populist appeal. Plus, isn't it really corporate tax rates that politicians need to look at when it comes to pleasing lobbyists and donors?
One fact/stat that's bandied about a great deal is that the top 1% of all earners pay 40% of all income tax. That's why I get very annoyed with all the "they don't pay their FAIR SHARE" crap. They pay their "fair share" and then some.
But it's not about social justice. It's not about class warfare. It's about maximizing tax revenue in the long term.
If we can have an aggressively progressive tax, and increase tax revenues over, say, a 20 year span by doing so, then WE SHOULD DO IT.
If it makes more money to tax the rich, then tax them. If it makes more money to lower their taxes, then lower them. That's all that matters.
The whole "social justice" angle is BS that should not be tolerated.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/16 06:45:47
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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While I tend to greet anything Shuma posts with a great deal of skepticism, and thus presume his ball based argument/graphic is a huge lie, I've never really understood the Republican fascination with not-progressive taxation.
It's posted directly off the newspaper it's linked too, so it's not really me you're failing to trust. I guess some people just lack the balls to come to grips with.... The balls.
I mean, I realize that they want to make rich people happy, like all politicians, but there really aren't that many rich people, so cutting their taxes isn't going to have a great deal of populist appeal.
If you think conservative populists care where the taxes are being cut then you're overestimating most of them.
Plus, isn't it really corporate tax rates that politicians need to look at when it comes to pleasing lobbyists and donors?
Less then you might think, especially when you want to sway voters. Lobbiests are powerful movers of funding, but they don't really get the vote out like a good message.
One fact/stat that's bandied about a great deal is that the top 1% of all earners pay 40% of all income tax. That's why I get very annoyed with all the "they don't pay their FAIR SHARE" crap. They pay their "fair share" and then some.
They also own a disproportionate amount of wealth compared to per capita population and tend to live lives of incomparable luxury while being relatively free from all forms of financial worry or burden. Fairness and capitalism don't work together, especially in a system as stratified as that in the U.S. Their "fair share" is whatever we want it to be, since fairness, wealth, and effort are not at all aligned or connected.
But it's not about social justice. It's not about class warfare. It's about maximizing tax revenue in the long term.
Now you're thinking like a democrat!
If we can have an aggressively progressive tax, and increase tax revenues over, say, a 20 year span by doing so, then WE SHOULD DO IT.
Political suicide.
If it makes more money to tax the rich, then tax them. If it makes more money to lower their taxes, then lower them. That's all that matters.
The unfortunate thing is that the camp that believes lowering taxes increases treasury revenues still exists. It's baffling, I know.
The whole "social justice" angle is BS that should not be tolerated.
Without the social justice angle why are we collecting taxes at all? Aren't a large amount of national expenditures based on the concept of social justice?
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/16 06:58:40
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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Tunneling Trygon
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Without the social justice angle why are we collecting taxes at all? Aren't a large amount of national expenditures based on the concept of social justice?
Spending is, to some extent, about social justice. Revenue generation should not be.
One should not tax somebody for having "too much" money. One should tax somebody in order to generate the best long term revenue.
Plus, I don't like the idea of taking money from somebody for the sake of taking money from them. The government should seek to be as constructive as possible. If somebody has disproportionately more money than everyone else, I'd like to see "everyone else" make progress, rather than just cutting down the rich guy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/16 07:43:41
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Spending is, to some extent, about social justice. Revenue generation should not be. Could it not be a mechanism to achieve it? One should not tax somebody for having "too much" money. One should tax somebody in order to generate the best long term revenue. Why? I certainly agree that in our current situation we should be taxing for effect, and not social implications, but is there a conceptual reason behind refusing to use taxation as a form of social metering? I mean, when someone makes five hundred times the amount a soldier or schoolteacher makes annually after taxes is it not the job of a socially aware government to attempt to establish a level of fairness in the situation? I mean, its not like joe hedge fund is working 500 times harder then a soldier, the vast majority of cases involving massive wealth involve manipulation of capitalist systems to create self replicating sources of income. Theres a reason wealth is so dynastic and stratified in America. Plus, I don't like the idea of taking money from somebody for the sake of taking money from them. The government should seek to be as constructive as possible. If somebody has disproportionately more money than everyone else, I'd like to see "everyone else" make progress, rather than just cutting down the rich guy. That would involve massive financial reform and regulation. Free capitalism has always resulted in the distillation of national or dynastic wealth under individuals or families. The absolute free market would result in absolute control of the market by a very small number of individuals, it's a system that destroys itself without forced redistribution.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/16 07:43:52
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/16 07:46:46
Subject: The bush tax cuts in fancy infographic form
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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KingCracker wrote:I agree. They are both fairly close to one another and then POW around the 500+ mark. Its almost triple the dems? In one bracket? That seems a bit much. Then the 1,000,000+ its a little more then 16x greater? Again thats just one bracket on that graph. Seems a bit.......... biased?
The figures are from the Joint Committee on Taxation, they aren't biased. They show that the Republican plan has a lot more tax cuts for the very wealthy. It's really very straight forward.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Actually those under 200k are better off under the democrats, world recession included. That's really very impressive.
The recession doesn't really impact the figures. The Democrats want to keep the tax cuts for most but not the very rich, the GOP wants to keep all the tax cuts.
Under the Democrat plan people wouldn't really be 'better off' as they'd just be keeping the tax rate they've got currently.
Seems a good thing that those with least are given a break and those with large incomes see and increase of taxation, especially as we arrive at that million mark.
You'd think it'd be pretty obvious, wouldn't you? I mean, the top rate would still only be 29%, which is hardly high.
Phryxis wrote:While I tend to greet anything Shuma posts with a great deal of skepticism, and thus presume his ball based argument/graphic is a huge lie, I've never really understood the Republican fascination with not-progressive taxation.
They believe that by taxing the rich less, the rich will invest more and create jobs. Which is fine, except it’s been demonstrated time and again that it just doesn’t work. Investment is driven by consumer demand, not the surplus wealth of the rich.
But it’s too important a political conviction to let economic realities get in the way.
One fact/stat that's bandied about a great deal is that the top 1% of all earners pay 40% of all income tax. That's why I get very annoyed with all the "they don't pay their FAIR SHARE" crap. They pay their "fair share" and then some.
That all depends on people’s personal opinion of ‘fair share’. Which personally, I think is a nonsense. What the hell is ‘fair’?
Ultimately, all that matters is determining how much tax needs to be raised to meet government commitments. It’s a basic reality that in any developed country you just can’t generate that kind of money without taking most of it from the wealthy.
I personally don’t have a problem with this. Afterall, the property, corporate and contract rules we created that allowed them to generate their wealth came from the very same system that says they have to pay more than the poor. Automatically Appended Next Post: Phryxis wrote:Spending is, to some extent, about social justice. Revenue generation should not be.
One should not tax somebody for having "too much" money.
Yeah, I agree. But do you think anyone is actually being taxed out of spite? I think the wealthy (and the people inclined to defend the wealthy for whatever reasons) tend to assume that’s at least part of the motivation, but I really doubt it.
I think progressive taxation is really the result of the entirely pragmatic reason that you just can’t generate the tax revenue needed to run a modern government without predominantly taxing the wealthy, as well as the simple fact that a rich person will miss a dollar lost in tax less than a middle class person.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/16 07:58:09
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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