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In all the time I've been playing 40K, I've heard many units that are apparently so powerful, that to have their army without including said unit would be a bad idea.
The units I'm referring to are:

Nob Bikers
Lash Princes
Jetbike Seer Council
Rifleman Dreads

I know these units are considered to be Deathstar units, and I'm not questionning that. What I want to know is why these units in particular are the Deathstars? I may have missed a couple, if so please add them and your ideas about them to the list.

Thanks,

I can only speak to the Nob bikers. They are considered deathstars because, kitted correctly, they take quite a bit of effort to bring down, and will pretty much annihilate any enemy unit they touch. In effect they are really fast, really survivable power klaw delivery devices. Infantry are toast, tanks are buttered toast, and ICs and MCs are like a big ol' loaf of bread waiting to be devoured.

Now, as a counterpoint there are tons of great options that could replace the 600 or so points spent on a full unit of Nob bikers. So I run them and love them but by no means are they an "auto include". Also, tons of plasma makes me shake my head and start calculating how my 1200 pt army is gonna take on his 1850 without my precious nobs.

Rifleman dread isn't a deathstar but for it's points cost in the codex is an amazing light vehicle/infantry killer.

Seer councils are amazing due if they can keep fortune up they have a rerollable 4++ save, s9 vs tanks, wound on a 2+ vs critters

Thunderwolf Cavalry they're toughness 5, str 5, rending and 5 attacks? 3+ armor save 2 wounds and can be kitted out so each is diferent

Hmm, the T. Cavalry and the Jet Council sound pretty impressive.

Nob bikers; read the wound allocation rules again. then look at how 10 Nobs can all be equipped differently, given a 4+ armor, 5+ invuln, and FNP.

Lash Princes: being able to move your opponents models. you can get them all nice and clumped for some Pie plate love from a vindicator or an auto-hitting Blastmaster. you can prevent those Ork boyz from assaulting you for quite a long time while your other units simply blast them to pieces.

jetbike Seer council: Fortune on a unit with a 3+ armor and 4+ invun. FYI: Fortune allows you to reroll failed Saves. on 3+ armor and 4+ invuln...

Rifleman dreds: 4 Str7 AP4 shots. hit on 3+ and Twinlinked. Str7 occupies a magical place for weapons. it is strong enough to penetrate most Transports quite easily and it will wound, and ignore the armor or, most infantry, and the dred gets 4 shots. it is a dual purpose platform that will hit 99.5% of the time and can reliable destroy infantry and light and medium vehicles.

You missed TH/SS Terminators w/ Vulkan. 2+ Armor, 3+ Invulnerable, Strength 8 power weapons, All the TH are Mastercrafted thanks to Vulkan. Hits like a ton of bricks and keeps on moving.

TWC are awesome but someone covered that.

Nobz are great because they have a 4+ armor, 5+ invul (w/ Painboy), FNP (w/ Painboy), 2 wounds, Str4 T4, FC, count as troops (with a Warboss), and can abuse wound allocation rules something fierce.

Rifleman dreads aren't deathstar units. They are good but not deathstars.

Valkyrie wrote:In all the time I've been playing 40K, I've heard many units that are apparently so powerful, that to have their army without including said unit would be a bad idea.
The units I'm referring to are:

Nob Bikers
Lash Princes
Jetbike Seer Council
Rifleman Dreads

I know these units are considered to be Deathstar units, and I'm not questionning that. What I want to know is why these units in particular are the Deathstars? I may have missed a couple, if so please add them and your ideas about them to the list.

Thanks,

the nob bikers are a death star unit....
nob bikers are just really hard to deal with because they have feel no pain because of the mad dok, and they can all be tooled out differently to make full use of wound allocation. and of course they're two wounds a piece. so a canny player can keep them alive alot longer than you might think, meanwhile they do massive damage because of their weapon options and they are so fast its hard to keep them out of combat. there just isnt all that much they cant trash up close and they can get up close pretty fast. typical death star.

lash princes are good just because they're efficient (you get alot for what you pay for) and because lash of submission is wicked annoying. Lash Princes aren't a death star - its really not that hard to kill them, frankly. just think of a demon prince as a toughness 5 marine with 4 wounds. It's an orthodox choice for competitive play because of these. I wouldnt go so far as to say its an awful mistake to not bring them but if a chaos player is going to not take two lash princes and expect to be competitive, he ought to have a pretty clear idea *why* he's doing that.

I can't speak to the seer council or the rifleman dreads because I dont see them very often at my flgs. hope that helps.

Both bikers are deadly in melee and relatively tough. They aren't impossible to beat as Battle Cannons and such make mince meat out of them but because they are so fast that the window of opportunity to shoot them before they are at your face is rather small.

Rifleman Dread is good all around unit and it is popular because it works against almost any opponent.

Dunno about Lash Prince though. It feels like it's reputation is mostly carryover from the previous edition as it has no real power against MSU mech lists. Lash can be deadly but losing a 5 man squad that already lost it's transport is acceptable.

I have three rifleman dreads and I can't get them out of my lists. They take out MCs, transports, weapons teams, everything except heavy tanks... just like everyone already said.

Nobody has mentioned the Incubi? if one really wants to make sure a unit is dead, 8 of them lead by an archon and klavex w/ onslaught WILL. DESTROY. ANYTHING it touches.

The topic isn't what is the best deathstar, the topic is I don't get why this unit is so popular.

Sm only have 2 choices for autocannons rifleman dread or pred. That's why riflemen are so popular.

Lash princes are very inexpensive for what they do. If they don't seem that powerful anymore it is because they are so powerful the entire meta game changed to counter lash princes resulting in them no longer appearing to be grossly overpowered.

These units are popular because they reflect a tendency amongst Warhammer forum-goers to recommend strategic solutions to tactical problems: If hammer A doesn't work, then you should use hammer B, regardless of whether it's the tactics or the material favoured for those tactics.

Take the Lash of Submission, for example. You can get the same effect from carefully tank-shocking the enemy. But the Lash of Submission is a tool in a toolbox, and using tank-shock to concentrate targets for blast & template fire is a skill. Considering the utility of Lash of Submission in a mechanized environment I'd say its popularity is a legacy of its effectiveness in 4th edition.

Conversely, take the popularity of Mortis-Pattern Dreadnoughts when there's a proliferation of AV11-12 vehicles around. The Autocannon is your go-to gun in a lightly armoured environment, with the range, strength, and shots to murder these efficiently. It's also a one-trick pony despite having a big trick. AV14 is invulnerable to it, and it (like the Lash of Submission) can be locked-down in close combat relatively safely.

OverwatchCNC wrote:You missed TH/SS Terminators w/ Vulkan. 2+ Armor, 3+ Invulnerable, Strength 8 power weapons, All the TH are Mastercrafted thanks to Vulkan. Hits like a ton of bricks and keeps on moving.

Run them with lysander as well
Rifleman dreads aren't deathstar units. They are good but not deathstars.

shrike wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:You missed TH/SS Terminators w/ Vulkan. 2+ Armor, 3+ Invulnerable, Strength 8 power weapons, All the TH are Mastercrafted thanks to Vulkan. Hits like a ton of bricks and keeps on moving.

Run them with lysander as well
Rifleman dreads aren't deathstar units. They are good but not deathstars.
Yh. I have one not that amazing.

To be fair, deathstars aren't always good. They're usually very killy, but they're always a large investment of points into a single unit that could end up deciding the entire game based on whether or not they fail. A one-trick-pony's still a one-trick-pony, no matter how cool the trick is.

Fafnir wrote:

shrike wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:You missed TH/SS Terminators w/ Vulkan. 2+ Armor, 3+ Invulnerable, Strength 8 power weapons, All the TH are Mastercrafted thanks to Vulkan. Hits like a ton of bricks and keeps on moving.

Run them with lysander as well
Rifleman dreads aren't deathstar units. They are good but not deathstars.

Yh. I have one not that amazing.

To be fair, deathstars aren't always good. They're usually very killy, but they're always a large investment of points into a single unit that could end up deciding the entire game based on whether or not they fail. A one-trick-pony's still a one-trick-pony, no matter how cool the trick is.

Conversely, take the popularity of Mortis-Pattern Dreadnoughts when there's a proliferation of AV11-12 vehicles around. The Autocannon is your go-to gun in a lightly armoured environment, with the range, strength, and shots to murder these efficiently. It's also a one-trick pony despite having a big trick. AV14 is invulnerable to it, and it (like the Lash of Submission) can be locked-down in close combat relatively safely.

I think you got it wrong. AC Dread isn't a one trick pony because it can't penetrate Av 14 with shooting or kill termies. It is one of the best multipurpose units in the whole game.

Has there ever been a time when long range multishot Str 7 shooting would have been wasted? Think about other similar units, like Tau Battlesuits or the old Starcannons, people have always wielded medium Str multishot weapons.

AC is good because there isn't a match where it would be dead weight. Remember that your whole list isn't made of Riflemen so they don't have to do everything by themselves.

Nob Bikers-Fast, Durable, Killy, Troops.
Lash Princes-Fast, Cheap, Synergy.
Jetbike Seer Council-Fast, Durable, Killy.
Rifleman Dreads-Long Reaching, Quality/Quantity/Cost Cover fire.

Of the entire list, IMO the Rifleman is the most stable option.

Nob Biker Hard Counters: PBS, Ld modifying stuff, str810. Thx Fafnir.
Lash: Mech, MSU, not too durable.
Jetbike: psycher defense is a hard counter.

S8 is enough to be a hard counter for Nob Bikers. Nobz are still only a natural toughness of 4.

Nurglitch wrote:These units are popular because they reflect a tendency amongst Warhammer forum-goers to recommend strategic solutions to tactical problems: If hammer A doesn't work, then you should use hammer B, regardless of whether it's the tactics or the material favoured for those tactics.

Take the Lash of Submission, for example. You can get the same effect from carefully tank-shocking the enemy. But the Lash of Submission is a tool in a toolbox, and using tank-shock to concentrate targets for blast & template fire is a skill. Considering the utility of Lash of Submission in a mechanized environment I'd say its popularity is a legacy of its effectiveness in 4th edition.

Conversely, take the popularity of Mortis-Pattern Dreadnoughts when there's a proliferation of AV11-12 vehicles around. The Autocannon is your go-to gun in a lightly armoured environment, with the range, strength, and shots to murder these efficiently. It's also a one-trick pony despite having a big trick. AV14 is invulnerable to it, and it (like the Lash of Submission) can be locked-down in close combat relatively safely.

Tank shocking units to cluster them is using an improvised tool to perform the job that a specific tool does better. It's also very unreliable as a player who knows why they are being tank shocked is the one who moves his models and he can usually avoid clustering his units by placing the majority of them in front of or behind the tank, sometimes even enveloping the tank after the tank shock.

Lash is so damn powerful it self nerfed it's self. As soon as the 4th ed codex hit the tables the meta game changed away from foot armies that don't have psychic protection towards mechanized armies and/or armies with psychic protection. 5th ed vehicle rules and reduced 5th ed transport costs was the catalyst to an already volatile reaction. The end result is that Mech was crowned king, and Lash Princes were the unit to crown Mech king and Mech's coronation.

Now that mech is king the name of the game is popping transports that are AV10,11,and 12, and lash princes don't even seem relevant to mech players with psychic defense. That makes a rifleman dread a good unit because it's good at popping transports. The closest thing to compare it to is a hydra. The Rifleman is more expensive, but in return it's BS4, is AV12 in CC, and most importantly has side armor of 12. Most players would prefer the hydra, but SM can't take a hydra so they make do with a rifleman dread.

Rifleman dreads look cool. thats why they are popular.

Jetbike Seer council are deadly,I've seen them destroy a unit of termies via heavy flamers

Seer council, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Fall dead at the thought. Thump.

Grey Templar wrote:jetbike Seer council: Fortune on a unit with a 3+ armor and 4+ invun. FYI: Fortune allows you to reroll failed Saves. on 3+ armor and 4+ invuln...

Add to that the inherent mobility of jet bikes and what amount to hand-held lascannons when assaulting vehicles, and you wind up with a perfect Kryponite unit for a mech IG army. Especially when I make the mistake of letting my tanks get too close together and my opponent manages to multi-assault and knock out three of them at a go!

Also, the gods of gaming, lords of dice etc love it when you take your time to model your uniqe death squad that GW dont provide models for (seers jet council, twc, for example), so they are bound to be great

Again, the Jetcouncil has a hard counter, a simple hood, warding, rune staff, shadow etc.
As soon as they miss one fortune, the council is pretty much naked for the points invested.

It's a good example of a Death Star, much like Nob Bikers vs. the Psycher Battle Squad.

yeah, 1 Libby with Nullzone and Jetlocks evaporate.

this, and TH/SS terminators, is why marine players almost always take a Libby with Null Zone to tournaments.

it also makes Deamons uncompetitive. having to reroll your 5+ saves sucks.

Just thought of another combo: Fateweaver with Bloodcrushers. Why is that said to be such a good combo?

Re-rolls (again) attached to insane CC output, it's actually one of the most fragile death-stars due to the fate weavers habit of going "poof"
IIRC

Valkyrie wrote:Just thought of another combo: Fateweaver with Bloodcrushers. Why is that said to be such a good combo?

It really isn't. Fatecrusher list is possibly the slowest Deathstar list. Yeah they do deepstrike but they can't assault that turn. To stay in the Fateweavers bubble the majority of the list must move at the speed of normal infantry. Combine that with the not so great shooting ability of Daemons and the enemy can just eliminate your DPs, Soulgrinders and Heralds and proceed to dance around you forever.