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It is cheaper money wise to get a unit of five with two power weapons, two plasma pistols, and a glaive. Is this worth it points wise? What would you equip them with?

maybe 2 PWs and the rest naked.

the naked ones take wounds for the 2 armed with power weapons.


any more equipment and they are just too expensive.

plasma pistols are almost always a no. too expensive in comparison to what they might kill. I would give them all special weapons or all power weapons/lightning claws + a few shields.

:-) I tend to go the other direction (than the run most naked)... I field a few PF/TH and the rest with Power Weapons... Massive overkill in most cases, but scary when it hits the field...

Vangaurd vets should never have upgraded shooty weapons. The basic bolt pistol works just fine. Remember, you can't shoot when you use Heroic Intervention.

Lightning claws can add a lot more hitting power, as can fists. But then again, storm shields add an enormous amount of survivability. The option of running naked aside, is it better to add more punch or to add survivability?

if you do buy Powerweapons you should get LCs instead. same cost and you get to reroll to wound at the cost of +1 attack from your bolt pistol.


don't get stormshields. they are only useful in CC where there will be alot of power attacks. your opponent won't waste AP2 or 3 Shots on them because that would gain him nothing and completely negates that advantage of a SS. he will just shoot his Lasguns, Shuricats, bolters, shootas... at you to make you die by forcing saves. SS are good on top of a 2+ armor because they force your opponent to use Ap2 shots, but in the quantity they come at you your SS will protect you.

you almost double the cost of the Vanguard veteran by giving them SS. at this point Assault terminators do the same job for far cheaper.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:plasma pistols are almost always a no. too expensive in comparison to what they might kill.

Like a transport? There is 5e's "you may kill the transport and then assault the bailing out passengers" rule. The VVs need a shooty can opener, the plasmaP being one.

AbaddonFidelis wrote: I would give them all special weapons or all power weapons/lightning claws + a few shields.

Power toys for every VV means entirely trashing whatever you assault, leaving your jumpers open to return shooting. I found success with 40 to 50% power toys, allowing for 2 rounds of h2h; optimum for survival and good for disallowing return firing.

Grey Templar wrote:if you do buy Powerweapons you should get LCs instead. same cost and you get to reroll to wound at the cost of +1 attack from your bolt pistol.


don't get stormshields. they are only useful in CC where there will be alot of power attacks. your opponent won't waste AP2 or 3 Shots on them because that would gain him nothing and completely negates that advantage of a SS. he will just shoot his Lasguns, Shuricats, bolters, shootas... at you to make you die by forcing saves. SS are good on top of a 2+ armor because they force your opponent to use Ap2 shots, but in the quantity they come at you your SS will protect you.

you almost double the cost of the Vanguard veteran by giving them SS. at this point Assault terminators do the same job for far cheaper.

I'd say one or two storm shields would be okay, just in case you ever run into enemies packing power weapons.

I suppose (on the issue of power toys versus naked) that the question is whether you want the vets to be a true heavy hitter unit, taking on the baddest of the enemy, or whether you want them to just tie up the enemy and allow the rest of the force to enter the fight in relative safety.

Aren't they a little expensive to just be a tie-up unit? Their potential for destruction is so tempting...

The only problem I see with them staying in combat to long rather than a swift advance is that the longer they stay in combat the more chance they get of being killed by PF and the like. I've noticed almost every army that can take these upgrades on thier sergeants or leaders do, and S8+ power weapons will kill at least 1 or 2 VV per assault phase.

prussia59 wrote:I suppose (on the issue of power toys versus naked) that the question is whether you want the vets to be a true heavy hitter unit, taking on the baddest of the enemy, or whether you want them to just tie up the enemy and allow the rest of the force to enter the fight in relative safety.

Aren't they a little expensive to just be a tie-up unit? Their potential for destruction is so tempting...

they certaintly have the options to be destructive and you wouldn't use them any other way.

the problem is that Assault Terminators do the same job for cheaper and are more durable.

a VV with a PW and SS is 55 points, 65 points with Jpacks. you get 2 Str4, power attacks and a 3+ armor and 3+ invuln. for 15-25 points less you can get a 2+ armor, 3+ invuln and 2 Str8 attacks or a 2+ armor, 5+ invuln, and 3 Str4 Power attacks that reroll to wound.

I run my VV with 4 power weapons and bolt pistols on the regulars and then the Sgt has a PF and Infernus Pistol. Just my two sense all though when i Heroic Intervention and it all works out well then its great.

no one denies HI is good. it is great.

the problem is that you are paying a minimum of 175 points for what are essentially 5 Assault marines with 1 additional attack to be able to assault when they deep strike. Deep Strike involves 2d6 scatter and you can only assault 6" and can't run.

if you DS close enough to the enemy to assault them then you are risking a mishap on what are very expensive assault marines(you could get 9 assault marines for the same cost with more bodies and attacks) or risking scattering away and not being able to assault them at all.


For BAs the story changes. for a little more cost you reduce your scatter to only D6. now HI is easy enough to get to use as a viable tactic. you still run into the problem of expense though.

prussia59 wrote:Lightning claws can add a lot more hitting power, as can fists. But then again, storm shields add an enormous amount of survivability. The option of running naked aside, is it better to add more punch or to add survivability?

generally speaking you want to invest in offense over defense. killing stuff is a pretty effective way of defending yourself, since if they're dead they can't attack and you therefor don't have to take saves. storm shields are good one or two is probably a good idea but I wouldnt spam them on veteran squads, its too expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brothererekose wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:plasma pistols are almost always a no. too expensive in comparison to what they might kill.

Like a transport? There is 5e's "you may kill the transport and then assault the bailing out passengers" rule. The VVs need a shooty can opener, the plasmaP being one.

sure but do the math on how likely a single plasma pistol is to bust a transport. the odds are not encouraging. I estimate somewhere around 7% for a rhino not in cover. for 15 points those odds are too long.

Playing as Flesh Tearers, I usually build with the "Best defense is a solid Offense"... USUALLY I can get them close enough to a Priest to get the Furious Charge off, so the Str 5 I 5 PW's can usually kill off enough to make it worth my while (4 attacks/trooper).. I suppose LC's would be better, but for the extra 15 points? Eh... Same for the Shields, dead things don't strike back :-)

I went for a unit of 8 ( no JP's ),with 5 PW,1LC and 2 PF.Its waaay expensive,but can be cut down to fit in a razor or bulked out with my chapter master and a chaplain and put in a rhino or even my LRR depending on points total for the game.It will always have a big neon target on it and may not kill its points back for me,but i like them and its always fun to run out now and again.

Keep it plain and simple.
My DoA army fields 3 VV units each of which 5 men with a power fist.

My economic version is PF/SS and 4x power sword. If I want a unit that is survivable I run TH/SS, 4x LC/SS, power sword & melta pistol, chainsword & bolt pistol. The first squad I listed is great at taking out units like Long Fangs on the charge.