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I see chupathingy's list is up, but I'm interested in opinions on a larger, 2k army for a tourney:

Ethereal w/ 2 SDs
Shas'el - Shield Gen, PR/MP/MT

3 FKs bonded, team leader is FK+
3 FKs bonded, team leader is FK+
3 FireStorms

6 FWs
7 FWs, bonded in Warfish
6 FWs - bonded
18 kroot w/ Shaper

Railhead - Dispod, BCs, MT, Target Lock
3 B-sides - all drone controlers, 6 SDs, Target Lock on Team Leader (ethereal sits with them)

8 Pathfinders - team leader, BK
Warfish

The usual: one unit of FWs takes the PathFs' D'fish. Kroot bubble wrap XV88s when applicable, and ethereal makes 'em Fearless. Thoughts?

I like your list, but seeing as you have the etherial, you might as well go the full mile and get a honor guard.

Other than that it looks like a really strong list.

You are one of very few people who you fire-storms... not that anything is bad with them at all.

honestly, if you want to be a dick, you get the honour gaurd and slap a marker light on the leader...but I have a questin about that. since the ethereals rules say the honour guard is made of veteran fire warriors that didn't take the suit training, would they be shas'ui's?....or are they still shas'la's?....it says that they get plus 1 to BS, and that the team is basically the same as the troops choice. (this is one of those things that has been itching at the back of my mind for a while....)

Few things here. You are light on for 2k points, from what im adding up, but ill let you play with that. Disclaimer - I play my Tau to win, and do, frequently, win. If your going to fluffy bunny heaven, forget listening to me.

HQ - Ethereals are bad bad bad. Not only are they completely ineffective as any sort of combat unit, they are bad for morale when they die. Canny players will exploit this.
Want your broadsides to not run? Take a Shas'O, with Stims/Iridium Armour, Target Lock, Missile Pod/Plasma/Multitracker. He can wear wounds that would torrent your broadsides, and can still pop off missiles at enemy transports with target lock. Also gives you some extra pew pew for when something inevitibaly comes for your broadsides.

Elites - Fireknives and Deathrains all the way my man. Burst Cannon/Missile Pod SEEMS effective, until you work out that its not. You want to maintain distance between your suits and your opponent, until you can rapid fire them at 12" If you want to mix suits up, try 2 x Fireknife teams, and 1 x deathrain (TL MP/TA) Team. Lots of accurate suppresion fire, no issues with needing markers for the deathrains, and some variety. Lose the bonding knives, they are wasted points, your better off with a team leader with HW MT/Plasma/Missile Pod and Targetting Array, makes the FK units more effective at supressing. Personally I just take 3 teams of Team Leader with HW MT/Missile/'Plasma/TA, with 2 x Fireknives, and be done with it.

Troops - You dont have enough bubble wrap. Dump the warfish squad, and get some more kroot, you will need them man.

Heavy - That broadside squad is an abortion. the footprint on that gak will be so goddamned big there is no way you can keep it out of assault. Forget drones man, your broadsides should always be a) in cover or b) behind kroot, meaning they get a cover save. Work 2 squads of 2 XV88's, with team leader, and 1 gun drone, if you ABSOLUTELY must have drones. Give one squad TA's, and sit them in a commanding position, to work as a gun turret. Give the second squad BASS, and move them along a covered flank, to threaten side armour.

Overall - too many firewarriors, and wasted points. Drop the Ethereals, change to Shas'O. Drop the Warfish Firewarrior squad, get more kroot. Change the heavy support option to 1 x railhead, BC's, Dpod, Multitracker, and the get 2 x squads of 2 broadsides, so you have some supression. Currently, any reasonable guard list will outgun you, and you dont want that.

Im worried at the lack of Pirahna too. Try to find points (probably from dropping fire warriors) to squeeze in 1 x pirahna with TA/Fusion blaster. Its not to kill things, its to turboboost in front of raiders/rhino rush armies, and force them to divert around you. Every inch they have to travel sideways is an extra inch away from assaulting you.

Best of luck with your tourney.

Hey guys, sorry for the noob questions. But I am looking to get into Tau, what units or weapon load out are you guys referring too with the following:

Fireknives
Deathrains
FireStorms
Railhead
Warfish


Thanks.

I concur with SneakyDan's assessment of that Broadside unit. It seems cool on paper to have a unit that un-shootable, but most opponents will look to tie it up in assault. If you have another XV-88, make two teams of two. You can win without using Kroot meatshields, but only if your shooting is superb. Play it safe.

Grix: The Tau codex has so many possible combinations of wargear and weapons for Crisis suits, but only a couple are actually playable.

Fireknife: Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multitracker
Deathrain: Twin-linked Missile Pods
Firestorm: Missile Pod, Burst Cannon, Multitracker
Sunforge: Twin-linked Fusion Blaster

The Hammerhead Grav Tank can take one of two main weapons, the Railgun or the Ion Cannon. It's just faster to say Railhead or Ionhead instead.

The Warfish is an Devilfish upgraded with a Smart Missile System, targeting array, and multitracker. It's more expensive, but much more effective than a normal Devilfish. Note that you should ALWAYS upgrade ALL Tau tanks with the Disruption Pod.

For more advice for new Tau players, check out these articles on Advanced Tau Tactica. These will give you a great idea on how each unit plays and how to win with our outdated codex.
http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewforum.php?f=34&sid=2057288e712e043d1ddc07419230d1eb

Thats where i know your nick from Gracian - ATT. Great website for those starting out, the tacticas are relevant, a lot of the general information isnt so much. Well intended, but like every forum, sifting through is the trick.

Gracian - I disagree on not needing kroot, at any points level. Fact is, so many armies these days have rapid ways of getting close to your shooty stuff, or worse, coming on behind it (wolf scouts anyone?). I think its fairly accurate to say that at any points level, some elements of your opponents force are going to get close enough to either a) assault you and interrupt your ability to shoot, or b) assault you and kill you. Dead. Kroot also can be positioned directly in front of your broadsides, to give them cover saves vs things like vendettas/stormravens, that can, with good positioning, ignore area terrain.

Needing kroot depends on your local meta, they are completely unnecessary for me, yet i've still won all but 2 of my games, one which i drew vs an almost mirrored Tau, and one I lost to Eldar based solely on bad luck (7 turns and 4 railguns failed to kill off a wave serpent and a falcon or their contents, and a jetseer council decided to run amok in my lines whilst a guardian squad sat on their pbjective, unshiftable DAs took residence in the middle objective, and I held my own - the game was a statistical nightmare).

I have never used kroot. Ever. I hate the models and I hate them in general. Yet i've never needed to use them.

If you're worried about Wolf Scouts coming in and wiping you off the board, I also assume you're worried about a JotWW Rune Priest dropping in next to your broadsides and JotWWing them to death. Instant points back for the Rune Priest, his squad and the Drop Pod and he can catch other stuff in the jaws line too if he positions it right. That strategy is more common than Wolf Scouts and is more likely to work.

The list itself is okay, although suffers a bit from a few strange choices.

The commander is fine, though i'd try and find the points for a targetting array. The shield generator is okay too put i'd prefer drones.

Youre elites also seem fine, but again i'd prefer a few drones; you're light enough on vehicles for a 2k list to be able to start pummeling your suits with AT fire that either ignores your save, instagibs you, or both; one well placed battlecannon template and your crisis squad is history.

Lose the bonding knives, they are wasted points

Usually i'd agree with you, but because the suits here are open to lascannon fire, krak missiles etc. Wouldn't it be safer to buy something for 5pts that lets you regroup after 2 of your suits go down? 1 Turn of shooting reduces a crisis team to 1 suit (so, two lascannons or krak missiles? Using SWs as an example, LF team split fire between two crisis teams?), he fails leadership and runs away, unable to regroup.

Firestorms are nice for thinning hordes, but the short range of the burst cannon means you'll always be about 24" away from the enemy; I prefer being at about 30" with Fireknives, as the extra 6" can make the difference.

If you must take Kroot, i'd drop the shaper and get 2 more kroot unless you really want the extra Ld. 21pts for Ld8 just doesn't seem like a great trade-off, especially when the shaper itself is fragile.

Pathfinders are fine, if a bit low in number. 1 Team might be stretched a bit in 2k.

Railhead is fine.
Broadsides are fine (maybe a few too many shield drones? A total of 8 when the Ethereal joins them; a few could be donated to the crisis teams or dissolved for points. With only 8 pathfinders tending to you list i'd be tempted to get them all Targetting arrays and a HW controller on the Team Leader. 4 SDs when the ethereal joins seems fine.)

I too would drop the ethereal - in your list I woulld find points for a Fireknife 'El with a positional relay. On the Broadsides I have never found more than 3 drones necessary, and 2 drones + array/ASS is excellent, especially if you have 2 teams. Remember if it is for a tournament you are going to have to be as efficient as possible - a lot of players argue in favour of the ASS for the 1/3 dawn of war missions, with a BSF on Broadside team leaders. A 2 x 2 setup would give you a lot more flexibility, and save on target locks.

Shapers for kroot are a huge expense for a very negligble benefit - you'd be better off buying another 3 kroot and having more squads. I would also not bother with more than 6 fire warriors in each squad, as if they get attention they will get squashed whether there is 8 or 6.

The commander probably doesn't need a Shield Gen as Crisis suits should usually be getting a cover save. I would buy another commander maybe missile pod/AFP/Positional relay and put him with the Firestorm team, as the relay is so unbelievably useful and their weapons mean they can stay further away + AFP is great for attacking anything less than a space marine in cover, and if you get 6 covered it should kill one. Also I would definately keep the firestorm squad as you only have 1 template for dealing with Orks/Guard/Nids.

Crisis suits would get a huge benefit from a drone each - just to take the first lascannon or missile launcher. A squad of obliterators would nuke one of your squads. I usually run 2xGun drones as the cover save its so easy for Xv8s to get essentially gives them a free invulnerable. Also optimising your squads for wound allocation is really helpful - Try Team Leader, Crisis suit, Crisis suit replacing multitracker with targeting array/tl one of the weapons. These two strategies have saved me time and time again.

Etherials may be bad in and of themselves, but look at what he uses them for. They could be quite effective, and if you are smart with deployment, you could just hide him behind some large terrain feature so no-one can shoot him.

I would somewhat agree that shapers aren't worth it. The extra leadership can be really nice at times though.

The Ethereal joins the broadsides, so anyone trying to kill him needs to aim for forcing wounds through wound allocation or has to blast through (currently) 8 shield drones with T4 and a 2+/4++ and 3 Broadsides with 2 wounds, T4 and a 2+ to get to him.

The only other option is combat, but even then he can be hidden near the back of the group if you're good with deployment, leaving assaulters chewing through the drones and broadsides.

so, I'm guessing that nobody has an idea about the Ethereal's retinue?.....

Played in the tourney, but more on that, later **.

SneakyDan wrote:Few things here. You are light on for 2k points, from what im adding up, but ill let you play with that.

I'll double check.

SneakyDan wrote: .... If your going to fluffy bunny heaven, forget listening to me.

What's fluffy bunny heaven? Like playing with a 'fluff' list? No, I'm not going to bring a 'fluffy' list to a 2k tourney.
SneakyDan, I guess you haven't been reading up on tau lists here on dakka, but I'm on nearly every one with advice. My peeps consider me a veteran player ... an average one with 6 years 40k experience, 5 years with tau. I've been able to keep track of all my games and I still have a 60% win ratio (including my poor/early Deathwing army, new nids in 2005, etc.). I've done best with Tau (70%), then eldar, SM, etc. ChaosSM are the next up to be played. Anyway ...

SneakyDan wrote:HQ - Ethereals are bad bad bad.

No kiddin'. They only have one use. At 2k, there's room for him as he's an upgrade; Fearless for the XV88s, re-roll morale for units in LoS and plus two SDs for the b-sides. That's all. And that's only with this XV88 frisbee-fest (8 Shield Drones).

SneakyDan wrote: Not only are they completely ineffective as any sort of combat unit, they are bad for morale when they die.

More over, if the ethereal dies with this set up, then I have already lost. In the meantime, while alive, he's *great* for morale. 2 edged sword. -- I understand the major suckage of ethereals, but took a gamble this time, and it turns out, he had no impact on the game.**

SneakyDan wrote:Canny players will exploit this.

Or, ignore it. **

SneakyDan wrote:Troops - You dont have enough bubble wrap.

Actually, I had plenty. I could have used maybe 4 less models and they completely protected the b-sides.

SneakyDan wrote: Dump the warfish squad, and get some more kroot, you will need them man.

Dump a FW+Warfish?

SneakyDan wrote:Heavy - That broadside squad is an abortion. the footprint on that gak will be so goddamned big there is no way you can keep it out of assault. Forget drones man, your broadsides should always be a) in cover or b) behind kroot, meaning they get a cover save.

Forget drones? Sorry, SneakyDan, but that disqualifies any more advice from you. Why would I dump another 2+/4++ wound for b-sides?
I believe we have entirely different philosophies on how to play tau.
Respectfully, Thanks, but no thanks for your advice.

krato123 wrote:so, I'm guessing that nobody has an idea about the Ethereal's retinue?.....

12pts for a BS4 Fire Warrior isn't great, especially when it's a retinue for your Ethereal, and thus stops him joining the broadsides as planned. The only use for an Ethereal outside joining squads for fearless or shield drones is a risky way of giving your units Preferred Enemy for the rest of the game.

Avatar 720 wrote:

krato123 wrote:so, I'm guessing that nobody has an idea about the Ethereal's retinue?.....

12pts for a BS4 Fire Warrior isn't great, especially when it's a retinue for your Ethereal, and thus stops him joining the broadsides as planned. The only use for an Ethereal outside joining squads for fearless or shield drones is a risky way of giving your units Preferred Enemy for the rest of the game.

I concur with Avatar 720. The build that I have here was given to me by the cut-throat, WAAC guy who usually wins the tourneys, the same guy, in fact, who won *this* tourney.

Honor-Guard for the ethereal really has no practical use, that can't be matched by FWs with a MarkerLight from the ML options: PFs or MarkerDrone Jockey-Stealth Suit unit.

AS for this list's results in the tournament:

**
First game:
Randomly selected DawnofWar.
I managed to kill a BA Chaplain and his 10 mates in 2 turns. A Drop Podding Dread, too. Turn 3-ish, dice went to crap:

My Railhead wouldn't hit or pen a LasCan PRed for 4 turns (game ended at end of 4 - time). That shoot out was a Draw between the two tanks. Then my Pathfinders failed to hit Mephy, denying him Cover Save (he was in a Warfish's crater) so the FKs barely hit him and he made all but one Cover Save. Mephiston next ate the FKs, and then the kroot, but ignored the b-sides, ethereal and Firesbee-fest **entirely** as the secondary objective was to kill all enemy 'Elite' units. Each time he freed up from the FKs, I poured b-sides, kroot shots and the rest of the army into him or what was left at each step. So, Mephy went on to eat the last FKs and FSs.
Both Warfish had '6's rolled for damage results.

Sigh.

Game 2:
Randomly: DawnofWar. Again.
I choose poorly for deployment and picked the side of the table with the road. He had BTs, including a LandRaider fulla termie + Marshall LightningClaw fun.

So what? We tau players laugh at AV14. I've got 4 RGs. What, me worry?

Heh. He stole the initiative. DoW and NightFighting keeps the RGs quiet. That's okay, I got Turn 2 to still nail him. PFs yield 3 Markerhits. Railhead and b-sides get 1 hit, but nadda on the pen-roll. Railhead fails DisPod save and gets Exploded! Warfish, Same. Again. Warfish #2. Exploded!

Turn 3 and I'm in trouble. Marshal and pals eat the kroot and a unit of FWs. My turn: FKs unload on Marshal and kill 2. That's 6 PR shots and 6 MPs. Bad dicing.

His turn 4. the 3 FK unit takes a LasCan hit and fails Cover Save. They blow morale. HEY! Ethereal is in LoS. Reroll it. 11. That pair jumps off the field.

Marshall and 2 termie buddies *now* eat the XV88s and their drones, but it takes 3 h2h rounds. Meantime, his two LasCan Preds are picking off my other XV8s, the FSz and FKs.

I kill another termie and that's it.

Quite possibly, the *worst* beating my tau have ever taken, that I can remember. I scored *not* a single KP and he tabled me in 5.

Dice. Bad choice on deployment on my part for not recognizing the speed at which the road helped the LR get termie-death to my lines. Epic bad dice. Opponent even patted my shoulder, "Dude. That's bad. I'm sorry." I smiled.
---------------------
So, guys, the mega-points sink B-side set up wasn't an issue, unless one would claim it hogged points. My dislike for my own list, is weakness in troops. 3 Warfish, fulla FW 12 packs, bonded. I'd still field the kroot. I know the 3 sets of XV8s under performed, stupidly so.

Eh, bad day all around.

Sorry I was too late to help. Did the Ethereal help the BS at all? Were the 6 SDs necessary? From your run down it didn't appear to.

What a don't like about your list is the lack of redundancy in the Hammerheads and the lack of horde control. At this point level even with the Fire storms you need 3 Pie-plates. You were lucky to play 2 SM players rather than a Nid or Ork horde.

You also need more AT. 4 Railguns shooting at a LR are very unlikely to stop it in 1 turn of shooting. And that is all you're ever likely to get before game over when the contents reach you. By pumping so many points into that BS unit you didn't have enough fire power to carry the day.

Likewise I don't understand why you need all 8 PFs in 1 unit and why you have 1 FW squad on foot. If you split that PF unit into 2 you can get the other FW squad a DF. Having all your troops mounted will increase their survivability by far more than just chucking more bodies in there. Likewise the 1 squad that has a dedicated transport should have just a disruption fish rather than a warfish and should start the game in reserve to reduce the amount of turns the enemy have to kill them.

Aty this point level you generally have to bite the bullet and get some fusion suits. You neede to fill out all 5 RG options (i.e. 2 HHs and a BS squad of 3) and all Crisis elites choices.

Then you need some sort of protection from fast armies either kroot wrap or positional relay on a Ninja designed list.

Even then against some armies you are always gioing to be at a massive disadvantage. Whilst DoW pretty much bones any Tau build.

You also need more AT. 4 Railguns shooting at a LR are very unlikely to stop it in 1 turn of shooting.

3 Broadsides hitting an assumed markerlit (who wouldn't?) LR on 2s = 2.5 hits, re-rolling failed hits = 2.9 hits, which would most likely be 3 on the tabletop. 5s to penetrate = 0.999. 3+ to immobilise/wreck it in some way = 0.666333.

I'd say 3 broadsides have a fair chance of doing it in 1 turn.

3 Broadsides hitting an assumed markerlit (who wouldn't?) LR on 2s = 2.5 hits, re-rolling failed hits = 2.9 hits, which would most likely be 3 on the tabletop. 5s to penetrate = 0.9722.4+ cover save assumed smoked (who wouldn't) = 0.48611 3+ to immobilise/wreck it in some way = 0.324.

Corrected your maths for you...

It takes between 4 and 5 railgun HITS to on average wreck a smoked RHINO. Granted you've got the benefit here of immobilising doing all that you need it to do but still.

FlingitNow wrote:What a don't like about your list is the lack of redundancy in the Hammerheads and the lack of horde control. At this point level even with the Fire storms you need 3 Pie-plates. You were lucky to play 2 SM players rather than a Nid or Ork horde.

Bad luck, both being 'fast' SM. BTs with paved roads and Blood Angels.

FlingitNow wrote:You also need more AT. 4 Railguns shooting at a LR are very unlikely to stop it in 1 turn of shooting. And that is all you're ever likely to get before game over when the contents reach you. By pumping so many points into that BS unit you didn't have enough fire power to carry the day.

Likewise I don't understand why you need all 8 PFs in 1 unit and why you have 1 FW squad on foot. If you split that PF unit into 2 you can get the other FW squad a DF. Having all your troops mounted will increase their survivability by far more than just chucking more bodies in there. Likewise the 1 squad that has a dedicated transport should have just a disruption fish rather than a warfish and should start the game in reserve to reduce the amount of turns the enemy have to kill them.

Aty this point level you generally have to bite the bullet and get some fusion suits. You neede to fill out all 5 RG options (i.e. 2 HHs and a BS squad of 3) and all Crisis elites choices.

Then you need some sort of protection from fast armies either kroot wrap or positional relay on a Ninja designed list.

The kroot wrap acted as it should and then got steam rolled over anyway.

I agree on all points:
Split the PFs into 2 sets of 4.
Big XV88s with 6 SDs *out* for 2nd Railhead and a A.s.s. Broadside set up with only 2 SDs.
FusionBs: Since both SM armies had multiple predators, yeah, a little Deep Striking (with 2 PF Warfish for the reroll on scatter) Helios action ought to have helped.

FlingitNow wrote:Even then against some armies you are always gioing to be at a massive disadvantage. Whilst DoW pretty much bones any Tau build.

True.
-----------------
How do TL-FB+ Crisis Suits (Sunforge?) grab ya? Cheap and accurate.

Bad luck, both being 'fast' SM. BTs with paved roads and Blood Angels.

I'd say both are slow SM armies, comparred to Vanilla marines anyway.

How do TL-FB+ Crisis Suits (Sunforge?) grab ya? Cheap and accurate.

Chuck on a flamer for cheapness and a useful weapon should they survive and they are an excellent deepstriking tank hunter

FlingitNow wrote:

3 Broadsides hitting an assumed markerlit (who wouldn't?) LR on 2s = 2.5 hits, re-rolling failed hits = 2.9 hits, which would most likely be 3 on the tabletop. 5s to penetrate = 0.9722.4+ cover save assumed smoked (who wouldn't) = 0.48611 3+ to immobilise/wreck it in some way = 0.324.

Corrected your maths for you...

It takes between 4 and 5 railgun HITS to on average wreck a smoked RHINO. Granted you've got the benefit here of immobilising doing all that you need it to do but still.

I was doing maths according to chances in 1 turn; smoke was never mentioned. You didn't correct me, you merely added a late modifer by assuming that smoke would be up whenever shots are fired.

4 Railguns shooting at a LR are very unlikely to stop it in 1 turn of shooting.

That was the original statement that I attempted to refute through math-hammer, you will note that smoke is not mentioned.

FlingitNow wrote:

Bad luck, both being 'fast' SM. BTs with paved roads and Blood Angels.

I'd say both are slow SM armies, comparred to Vanilla marines anyway.

How do ya figure?

The Land Raider rolled 18" Turn 1. I failed to make Night Fighting LoS.
Turn 2, it rolled 18" again, on a road, spit out termie fun and started eating kroot.
How is that *not* fast? -- I'll grant that *any* SM army would be fast on 'roads', but Black Templars also gain "zeal" rolls, which speeds up crossing the table for infantry.

Blood Angels *not* fast? Considering their jump troops are favored to take; he was in assault range on Turn 2, but his chaplain failed a Difficult Terrain roll, sparing my PathFinders a turn. He was eating units with Meph by turn 3 (remember DoW). Their tanks being Fast vehicles?

Really?

How do ya figure?

Neither army is capable of assaulting you in turn 1 with their entire force. The Vanilla codex is the quickest codex into assault in the game. You've said it yourself it was turn 3 before you were in assault, you had at least 2 full turns of shooting at them before they assaulted you, against Vanilla marines you get none.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I was doing maths according to chances in 1 turn; smoke was never mentioned. You didn't correct me, you merely added a late modifer by assuming that smoke would be up whenever shots are fired.

4 Railguns shooting at a LR are very unlikely to stop it in 1 turn of shooting.

That was the original statement that I attempted to refute through math-hammer, you will note that smoke is not mentioned.

You added in marker lights which were also not mentioned...

If you've any experience playing 40k you'd realise you generally have 1 turn of shooting at an LR before it's contents are on you and in that turn it will most likely have popped smoke or otherwise ensured it has a coversave/blocked LoS against long ranged AT.

Particularly in DoW when the first turn he's going to be out of night vision range (or off the board) and the 2nd turn he'll certainly be smoked...