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Hey Dakka, I recently played a tournament in which Razorspam made another appearance. It didn't win the event and watching a few snippets of the games during my own round it got me wondering if the list really is that good. Anyways I wrote an article about it over on Capture and Control. Here is the link.

Capture and Control: Lists: Is Razorback spam really that good?

Just a few of my thoughts on the subject.

Razorback spam unbeatable? no. Good? Eh maybe, well I play DE so um yeah vehicles dont typically last long

Nice standard strategy you outlined, should allow most anyone to deal with a static gunline.

One thing that I also think would really cause a list like that trouble is indirect fire. Anyone bringing 2 manticores against something like that basically has it in the bag. 1 manticore should be common enough at a competitive level to make razorback spam painful, at any rate.

Irdiumstern wrote:Nice standard strategy you outlined, should allow most anyone to deal with a static gunline.

One thing that I also think would really cause a list like that trouble is indirect fire. Anyone bringing 2 manticores against something like that basically has it in the bag. 1 manticore should be common enough at a competitive level to make razorback spam painful, at any rate.

I think my Alpha strike Salamander list I ran yesterday would have given the LasPlas RB spam a run for it's money. With Deepstriking MM Dreads and scouting Land Speeder storms with MM filled with scouts with PF and Krak grenades I think I could have taken out a lot of those RBs turn 1. Alas I wasn't paired up with him...

there is no unbeaetable 40k army.

period.

its good. its not unbeatable.

agreed.^^

I started a razorback list recently, It's not unbeatable, certainly good though. I think the article raises a good point- the units are very fragile. It took me awhile to get used to it, i found at first i was to spread out, to easy to divide and conquer. Good article.

The author brought up a good point. An ok player can get to the top tables with razorspam, and the quality of players there are good at shredding av11 stuff.

Razorspam is also going to have a real hard time with armies that outgun them like ig or tau. I find it funny that a big weakness of a top tier list like razorspam is a bottom tier army like tau.

schadenfreude wrote:The author brought up a good point. An ok player can get to the top tables with razorspam, and the quality of players there are good at shredding av11 stuff.

Razorspam is also going to have a real hard time with armies that outgun them like ig or tau. I find it funny that a big weakness of a top tier list like razorspam is a bottom tier army like tau.

Yes, I find this most humorous as well. I had hoped the lone Tau player at the tournament would get to play him...

So I am not alone in never hearing of Razorspam winning a GT? Has anyone seen it win in a smaller tournament?

I dont wanna be pretentious, but the list I saw isnt exactly a Razorspam list. A razorspam list would have around 9-12 Razrobacks at 2k points.

Then again, it IS a scary list.

Yuber wrote:I dont wanna be pretentious, but the list I saw isnt exactly a Razorspam list. A razorspam list would have around 9-12 Razrobacks at 2k points.

Then again, it IS a scary list.

You can be pretentious if you like. But only because I whole heartedly approve of your signature No, but seriously, I think taking 3+ of any one unit is spamming the only exception I would make to that is if it is a troops choice. But I see your point Yuber, I guess it is more of a Dakka Spam list...

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Yuber wrote:I dont wanna be pretentious, but the list I saw isnt exactly a Razorspam list. A razorspam list would have around 9-12 Razrobacks at 2k points.

Then again, it IS a scary list.

You can be pretentious if you like. But only because I whole heartedly approve of your signature No, but seriously, I think taking 3+ of any one unit is spamming the only exception I would make to that is if it is a troops choice. But I see your point Yuber, I guess it is more of a Dakka Spam list...

I understand what you mean by "razorspam" the problem is more about the monicker. Taking 3+ of one unit really is spamming.

But the real Razorspam list forgoes anything else in the codex, its just 6 man Grey hunters or Long Fangs riding Razorbacks.

Razorspam variants differ around options regarding:

-Just sticking to TL HBs and maximizing vehicle count. Then bumping up the 5 man grey hunters with PFist Combi melta wolf guard to annoy you.
-LasPlas Backs and barebones greyhunters.


What makes the Razorspam list truly deadly is that it clogs up the entire field with annoying tanks, with relatively good massed firepower. Trust me, its extremely annoying to see 11-15 Razorbacks clogging up every objective and clear route for the opponent. Its even more annoying that when you try to shoot them, you need to roll a 6 on damage table to remove the model.

The problem with the list posted in your blog is that its actually not a great example. Its close, but not there. The list itself has too few razorback squads, and puts in some dreads / thunderwolves. A significant portion of the strategy of that spam list is the alpha strike potential. The idea is to take an early lead and have too many targets for your opponent to ever hope of catching up.

Don't get me wrong, the list is still scary. BTW what point level is that made for? I didn't see that mentioned. I'm guessing 1750, but I'm not entirely sure.

You agree with one point of your analysis, these lists can be very hard to win with in KP missions against a knowledgeable opponent. KP is actually designed to punish specifically this kind of list. However, the firepower put out by this type of list is of the tabling magnitude. KP missions allow your opponent to hug cover and try to stay out of LOS.

I think this list has developed some infamy due to low terrain boards. Without cover and BLOS terrain items, this list will have the reach and hitting power to hit so hard early on that recovery is impossible. While I don't advocated completely cluttered boards either, you need to have enough terrain to blunt this style of alpha strike list.

Sorry, I often forget not everyone reading the blog knows me and our FLGS. It was 2k points.

stompydakka wrote:there is no unbeaetable 40k army.

period.

That's the truth...which is what makes 40k a great game...

I think this list has developed some infamy due to low terrain boards. Without cover and BLOS terrain items, this list will have the reach and hitting power to hit so hard early on that recovery is impossible. While I don't advocated completely cluttered boards either, you need to have enough terrain to blunt this style of alpha strike list.

I agree. That and playing on those silly battle boards GW sells with built in hills, which are always conveniently placed around the edges of the battle. Every single game of at the local GW store is fought in a valley, where any shooty units deployed at the corners have LoS to 90% of the board.

You can take pieces of those boards and turn them so the hills arn't in the corner, you can also put a big hill in the middle of the board instead, just so ya know.

It could be a difficult army to deal with, given sufficient cover, good deployment

I had the misfortune to get paired against him Round 2, and unfortunately rolled spearhead. My mistake was actually fielding units. All he did was crowd a corner with enough LoS to shoot as I tried to get my bugs across the board.

He was a really nice guy, but honestly it was pretty boring to play against, and with an exception of him rolling 17 for leadership against my Doom, it was a one-sided match where he didn't move the entire game. I can't imagine it was all that fun for him.. though winning IS fun..

Having not played against Wolves before I would have just held everything in reserve except my Hive Guards(There were some ruins that had no windows and were perfect for Hive Guards) and made him come to me. Live and learn(Play and learn?)

Yet another unit that many have said sucked, and seems to be proving it can actually be tough. I love the surprises 40k tosses us from time to time.

Still no one who has seen a Razorspam list win a local tourney? No one heard of it winning a GT? Looks like my theory is proving to be correct so far...

freddieyu1 wrote:

stompydakka wrote:there is no unbeaetable 40k army.

period.

That's the truth...which is what makes 40k a great game...

This is true - but it's also a bit of a fallacy. Remember lots of players come with standard "lists". Say a player comes up against a huge IG armoured division, with an army list thats designed to fight a little of everything rather than anti armour spam. It's easy to switch to anti-infantry tactics, but if you don't have the anti armour in your arsenal, its pretty much game over from the word go.

OverwatchCNC wrote:Still no one who has seen a Razorspam list win a local tourney? No one heard of it winning a GT? Looks like my theory is proving to be correct so far...

In the last tourney I played in, a SW razorspam-ish army took 1st place by a clear margin in front of C:SM and IG (me)

It was 1850pts, 30-ish players, and while he didn't just use razorbacks, it has the characteristics of a razorspam list.

HQ

Wolf guard battleleader w/ TWC, Wolfclaw, 2x Fenrisian wolves, Saga of the Beastslayer, Meltabomb

Elite

Wolf guard (6)
3 w/ Combimelta
2 w/ Powerfist, Combimelta
Razorback las/plas

Wolf scouts (5) w/ Meltagun
Wolf scouts (5) w/ Meltagun

Troops

Grey hunters (5) w/ Meltagun
Rhino
Grey hunters (5) w/ Meltagun
Rhino
Grey hunters (5) w/ Meltagun
Rhino
Grey hunters (5) w/ Meltagun
Rhino

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf Cavalry (1) w/ Thunderhammer, Storm shield
Land speeder w/ Multimelta, Heavyflamer
Land speeder w/ Multimelta, Heavyflamer

Heavy Support

Long fangs (5) w/ 4x Missile launchers
Razorback las/plas
Long fangs (5) w/ 4x Missile launchers
Razorback las/plas
Long fangs (5) w/ 4x Missile launchers
Razorback las/plas

See sig for my overall feeling on razorspam. As an overall strat it's pretty good but at others have said, hardly unbeatable.

OverwatchCNC wrote:Still no one who has seen a Razorspam list win a local tourney? No one heard of it winning a GT? Looks like my theory is proving to be correct so far...

I haven't seen them at tourneys, I do see them proxied a lot in normal games. I think the main deterrents are that there is no model with/for the las/TLplas and the cost associated with getting like, oh say, 10 razorbacks.

I feel that a lot of people in this are underestimating razorspam by never playing against it, or they played against/with crappy razorspam list (not enough razorbacks lol.) Also remember, Stelek is the creator of these style lists, and he is by no means a chump at the theorycrafting or playing the game. His blog is at the top of my list when it comes to tactical advice.

The foil to razorspam? Not enough terrain on board, maybe mech guard (side armor lol) and tau. At least in my opinion. I would also say horde lists to some extent but I would not count on it.

It's crazy how much shooting a mechanized SW army can lay down. It doesn't have to be total razorspam either. You got the Long Fang missile spam with razorbacks and Grey Hunters in rhinos with their special weapons pulling drive byes. It's really crazy plus you can get some good assault units into the army besides the Grey Hunters.

Blood Angels are also good at razorspam with all the Lucifer patterned chassis rolling around - 6 fast predators for a wall of AV13 screening their razorbacks is tough. The major weakness of the BA razorspam is the lack of any real close combat except for Mephiston hiding behind the armored wall ready to jump on whatever gets too close.

Still at the end of the day AV11 is AV11 and there's lots of weapons that can pop them or shut them down from shooting for a turn. For some fast armies they just need that one turn to get inside the razorspam wall, they'll do lots of damage. Razorspam is an alphastrike army. If it doesn't inflict major damage the first couple of turns it can go south real quick.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/11/mechanicon-tournament-review.html

JawaBalls just did well with one. Not sure about quality of the tourney or his opponents.

The players at Mechanicon were really good, including a lot of players with some of the best GT win records on the east coast.

But Jawaballs's list is not really razor spam. It's really more of a BA shooting list with 4 razorbacks.

Sounds like a large percentage of the points came from soft scores. His w/l record was not impressive to be honest.