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Interesting debate. This is where I stand being a BT player.

The going to ground rule in the rulebook says the unit will react normally if affected by enemy actions (for example, it will take a Morale tests). If the unit is forced to fall back it will return to normal immediately. If its assaulted, same deal. So yeah if he goes to ground and then is forced to make a righteous zeal test, he is forced to run forward (or backwards) and is broken free of the gone to ground effect. The rule gives the example of falling back or being assaulted but does not say it is limited to these two scenarios.

-edit

I think the problem here is people are (or were) interpreting the GtG rule to be limited to falling back or being assaulted. But if you read it carefully it is just giving those 2 as examples.

scubasteve04 wrote:
The rulebook was pretty clear before in stating a G2g unit returns to normal after falling back or being assaulted. They are not given as examples. The example they give is taking morale tests as per normal, one example how a gone to ground unit takes involuntary actions when gone to ground.

Before the FAQ, the only written stipulations for breaking gone to ground was a fall back move or being assaulted. Just recently in the FAQ did they state other moves would break gone to ground.

Righteous zeal is not a fallback move. Its a consolidation move (you don't have to move your models if you don't want to, but they still count as moved) with the special stipulation that you must perform this move toward the nearest enemy unit.

"The unit will react normally if affected by enemy actions (for example, it will take Morale tests as normal)." BRB.

"In the shooting phase, any infantry unit that is not Pinned or Falling Back must take a Morale Check if it suffers any casualties". BT Codex.

Thus the unit takes its morale check and reacts normally.

It's easy to argue that Pining and going to ground are the same thing, but they are not. Pinning causes GtG, however GtG does not cause Pinning. Pinning does not give you a bonus cover save, Pinning is a completely separate rule, Pinning is offensive while GtG is defensive. Similar, but not the same thing.

-edit. If the BT's did not go to ground but instead were pinned by his opponent that's a different story. In that case he would not make his Morale Check.

Kommissar Kel wrote:While it is true that Pinning Weapons do not give you a -1+ Cover save, And it is also true that taking a Pinning Test does not give the Cover Bonus...

Once you have failed the Pinning Test you will have Gone to Ground and thus will have the -1+ Cover save Bonus.

If it said in the going to ground rule that the unit is now considered pinned fine. But it doesn't. They are separate rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofSteel wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:While it is true that Pinning Weapons do not give you a -1+ Cover save, And it is also true that taking a Pinning Test does not give the Cover Bonus...

Once you have failed the Pinning Test you will have Gone to Ground and thus will have the -1+ Cover save Bonus.

If it said in the going to ground rule that the unit is now considered pinned fine. But it doesn't. They are separate rules.

-edit, sorry if you weren't disagreeing with me. It seemed like you were on first glance. And yes they get the cover bonus after the pinning test is failed, but not by the shots being fired at them, as going to ground would.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No it says in pinning that the unit "is immediately forced to go to ground"

Go to ground tells you that you get the -1+ cover save bonus. Pinning does not say that the bonus is negated nor ignored.

Lets say I shoot an IG infantry squad with a sniper rifle, and a lascannon. I roll the sniper shot first, you take a casualty and fail the Pinning test, you go to ground. I shoot the lascannon next, you don't get a cover save.

Anyway, consider this. Rules often leave you on a trail, (see page 500) then on page 500 (see page 444). This is because one rule will include another rule into itself, do not confuse yourself by thinking that its a two way street. A Pinned unit is forced to "Go To Ground" a separate rule which is why they lead you to the appropriate page to read the separate rule. GtG does not lead you to the Pinning rule, because the Pinning rule is not included.

A unit is only ever pinned if it has failed a pinning test. Simple as that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:


-edit again it's hard to see if your for or against the rule at debate here, these extra side details like the cover save are superfluous. So if you are in agreeance my apologies.

Kommissar Kel wrote:All shooting(and Shooting resolution) from individual units happen simultaneously; so no you would not get the Cover bonus against the lascannon.

the only thing the pinning rules does is force a Go to Ground, and detail how they force a go to ground. Also they tell you that if you are already Pinned you cannot be Pinned again.

You are correct Pinning is a separate rule from Go to Ground; but the end result of that rule is that you have gone to ground, and that is all.

Agreed.

-edit, so are we in agreeance that the BT's in fact can go to ground and make their righteous zeal move?

Kommissar Kel wrote:I am not getting into that debate.

Sorry, I only wanted to clear the "new posts" indicator so i could easily tell which threads I have read, and which ones had new content; then I saw your post and felt the need to point out that Pinning does nothing other than force go-to-ground(which is different from the rule as written in 3rd and 4th; when the codex was written).

lol, alright. My post was misinterpreted by the majority. I was in-fact implying that the following shots from the rest of the unit would ignore the cover saves, to further enhance my point that Pinning is offensive and GtG is defensive.

-edit below

I kind of feel like that misinterpretation shadowed my real argument, so just to keep it fresh for anyone who is still in this debate -

"The unit will react normally if affected by enemy actions (for example, it will take Morale tests as normal)." BRB. (G2G rule)

"In the shooting phase, any infantry unit that is not Pinned or Falling Back must take a Morale Check if it suffers any casualties". BT Codex. (RZ rule)

Thus the unit takes its morale check and reacts normally. And GtG does not count as being pinned which we concluded already.