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Okay so I have been skimming through the codex (once more) and I'm wondering about how many of these special heroes truly are viable? Granted they all seem like something I would try for fun, but I mean on a competitive level, I see lelith being very competitive. Opinions on this anyone? What heroes for the DE do you find to be competitive and why?

Well, frankly, I'll not use special DE characters.
They are all neat and have some special abilities that look good on paper.
But at the end, I'll stay with an Archon (as always) and the fabulous Haemonculi.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, frankly, I'll not use special DE characters.
They are all neat and have some special abilities that look good on paper.
But at the end, I'll stay with an Archon (as always) and the fabulous Haemonculi.

Oh dont worry Im right with you on that note they never failed me in the previous codex, however I merely want to try and be fair to the specials and give them a spotlight

Lelith is far from competitive I think. She averages about 2-3 dead marines. Compare that with a tooled archon of similar points. Or better yet, consider the force multiplier effect of haemonculi.

As for the other characters...

Vect is interesting. Expensive, but some serious impact potentially. 4 ravagers in a 2k game is not shabby at all, even at that points cost. Note that his "ravager" doesn't have Aerial assault, IIRC.

The Duke is also intriguing, with his all DS army and synergy with combat drugs. Dunno if I'd use him though.

Malys's redeployment could be nice, but is situational.

And the Baron's modification to the troops slot is nice, but I question the effectiveness of hellions some.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:Lelith is far from competitive I think. She averages about 2-3 dead marines. Compare that with a tooled archon of similar points. Or better yet, consider the force multiplier effect of haemonculi.

As for the other characters...

Vect is interesting. Expensive, but some serious impact potentially. 4 ravagers in a 2k game is not shabby at all, even at that points cost. Note that his "ravager" doesn't have Aerial assault, IIRC.

The Duke is also intriguing, with his all DS army and synergy with combat drugs. Dunno if I'd use him though.

Malys's redeployment could be nice, but is situational.

And the Baron's modification to the troops slot is nice, but I question the effectiveness of hellions some.

Yeah I know I cant quite think of anything to justify her as competitive either, but I tried.

Vect is very expensive but like you said serious pontential, Ive heard many people say very good things about him, but it seems like compared to a decked out archon none have any equal (which is especially odd because vect is kinda the big dude among the DE) I just dont like

Malys but I mean she could ruin an eldar players day if you put her with an extra killy unit.

I think the Baron Hellion spam needs further testing to say for sure, but as for now I'm rather iffy on them

I think the Duke would be one of the heroes closer to competitive (especially against certain guard lists) if not competitive it does look fun, and I'm almost certain the look on your opponents face would be priceless

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:Lelith is far from competitive I think. She averages about 2-3 dead marines. Compare that with a tooled archon of similar points. Or better yet, consider the force multiplier effect of haemonculi.

As for the other characters...

Vect is interesting. Expensive, but some serious impact potentially. 4 ravagers in a 2k game is not shabby at all, even at that points cost. Note that his "ravager" doesn't have Aerial assault, IIRC.

The Duke is also intriguing, with his all DS army and synergy with combat drugs. Dunno if I'd use him though.

Malys's redeployment could be nice, but is situational.

And the Baron's modification to the troops slot is nice, but I question the effectiveness of hellions some.

Yeah Lelith is almost identical to Agonizer Archon in melee against MEQ and costs more. Maybe she could have some use with 9 Hekatrix hunting Death Stars because of the extra shardnet but dunno about that.

I don't see reason to not to take Duke if you don't need PGL. He costs same as Archon with similar gear and rerolls wounds against t3 (t4 too with either drug or FC). He also allows tactical flexibility because you can choose to deepstrike transports if you want to.

Baron is very cheap and boosts survivability of his Hellion squad with stealth. He is a good alternative to Archon + Squad at low points as Hellions cost only 16 points.

Vects is major gamble, he is very killy (almost 2.5 times better than a normal Archon against MEQ) but isn't any more survivable than a normal Archon. Seize initiative can win the game but you can also lose due to it.

Malys is probably best somewhere between 1000 and 1500 where she can redeploy a large chunk of the army and can annoy enemy's Psyker HQs. At higher points her low damage output probably makes other choices better.

Vects is major gamble, he is very killy (almost 2.5 times better than a normal Archon against MEQ) but isn't any more survivable than a normal Archon. Seize initiative can win the game but you can also lose due to it.

I see this mentioned quite a bit. You only lose if you deploy to seize the initiative. At 50/50, that's silly. Expect to go second. Deploy accordingly.

If I do, Baron, to get scoring Surf-Boarders.

While the Duke isn't the melee monster I'd want in a DE army, his special rules are great and he's still decent enough to wipe out regular troop squads. I think we'll see him used fairly frequently (I know I'll be using him a lot at first).

Vect *could* be competitive if you got lucky with him. I can see him working like a worse Mephiston, in that if your opponent doesn't know how to counter him, he can be a game changer.

The Duke is a solid choice - he buffs your combat drug units, and gives free deepstriking, plus buffs one Trueborn squad/Warrior squad to give 3+ poison weapons. Not bad.

The Baron, point for point, is one of the best special characters in the game. He has shadowfield, adds +1 to your dice roll to determine sides, makes the Helion squad he's in stealth, and allows you to re-roll dangerous terrain test (meaning you will ALWAYS be able to safely move into cover), AND allows you to re-roll hit and run tests, AND he makes Helions scoring! All for 105 points!

I'm going to test and see if a squad of 5-8~ Helions and the Baron can be competitive. On paper, I think it can.

Everything else is garbage.

The only con with the Baron is the lack of a power weapon, but it's understanable at that cost and the amount of rules he confers to Hellions.

Though, a bit saddened by it...it would seal the deal for me to start it too.

He's like the DE version of Gabriel Seth of the Edward Marines.

I find the Decapitator interesting, though some people I know already disproved this special character as not that strong. Though I like his ability to appear anywhere on the field like Marbo

I've tried vect outwith out his dais he's a bit hit and miss really without EW as a assault cannon can kill him quite easily if your shadow feild fails you. although i did use him agansit blood angels and he just walk though my brothers army.

Now, for a fun/fluffy type list, several have "character," but I doubt I'll use any of them in competitive games very often, if ever. If I do, the Duke is the likeliest one for the poison bonus and drug re-rolls, maybe Lady Malys for the ability to ignore psykers and mess with deployment. The Baron would be worth taking if I wanted to take Hellions as troops, but that's not one of my planned builds. Vect is too pricey for T3 model with no eternal warrior; Drazhar is too expensive; Lilith is too expensive and doesn't appear that effective without drugs, Agoniser; Rakarth is too expensive and even with T5/Regeneration/Feel No Pain, will die pretty easily without a save; and the Decapitator is just pointless IMO since he can't assault after placement, has no grenades to overcome being in cover, can't join units, T3 w/o only a 5+ save, etc. Succubi aren't really that good either, not nearly the options that Archons have. The most cost-efficient and flexible choices appear to be Archons and Haemonculi.

I find the Decapitator interesting, though some people I know already disproved this special character as not that strong. Though I like his ability to appear anywhere on the field like Marbo

I think he does have a "use". For 230 pts, you can get 6 mandrakes and him. Have them infiltrate forward or outflank, and have him appear with them to give them a pain token. It's shaky at best, but trying to get Mandrakes pain tokens seems to always involve some maneuvering.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:

I find the Decapitator interesting, though some people I know already disproved this special character as not that strong. Though I like his ability to appear anywhere on the field like Marbo

I think he does have a "use". For 230 pts, you can get 6 mandrakes and him. Have them infiltrate forward or outflank, and have him appear with them to give them a pain token. It's shaky at best, but trying to get Mandrakes pain tokens seems to always involve some maneuvering.

Seeing as how he's not an independent character, that doesn't work.

For characters, I like Vect and Drazhar.

Vect for his seize the initiative buff, double the combat potential of an Archon barring a powered up Huskblade/soul trap, his Obsidian orbs and possibility of putting a real source of Armor into an army that cannot take it.

Drazhar, because of his combat movement tricks, exarch powers and his ability to do serious damage depending on his armor saves/6's to wound.

true, so sadly, he's about as useful as he was last edition. Almost less so.

I'll throw in some insight from my Drazhar thread..

I think if you know what you are doing, Drazhar can be a much more effective HQ than an Archon.

He has EW, t4 s4 and his incubi unit will cost 60pts less because you arent taking a klaivex with him in the unit. Drazhars effective cost is really 170, not 230.

IMO he is more survivable than any of the other HQ units (special char or regular). the lack of an invul is a bit scary, but he more than makes up for it with EW. Archons may as well have one wound, because once the shadowfield is gone they are sitting ducks for str6+

Other than that, i think in a competitive format most of them have potential. Malys with her re-deployment, Duke with a super trueborn unit, Lelith, Vect (though i would only use him at 2k and above with the dais) and Baron all have very strong benefits. I would not use Rakarth when i can get 3-4 kitted out Haemonculi for the same cost. Decapitator suffers from not being an IC and the fact that he can not assault after he shows up.

Ztryder wrote:I'll throw in some insight from my Drazhar thread..

I think if you know what you are doing, Drazhar can be a much more effective HQ than an Archon.

He has EW, t4 s4 and his incubi unit will cost 60pts less because you arent taking a klaivex with him in the unit. Drazhars effective cost is really 170, not 230.

IMO he is more survivable than any of the other HQ units (special char or regular). the lack of an invul is a bit scary, but he more than makes up for it with EW. Archons may as well have one wound, because once the shadowfield is gone they are sitting ducks for str6+

Other than that, i think in a competitive format most of them have potential. Malys with her re-deployment, Duke with a super trueborn unit, Lelith, Vect (though i would only use him at 2k and above with the dais) and Baron all have very strong benefits. I would not use Rakarth when i can get 3-4 kitted out Haemonculi for the same cost. Decapitator suffers from not being an IC and the fact that he can not assault after he shows up.

You make a very good argument for Drazhar I know I will be trying him.
With Malys while her ability to re-deploy is good I think her best thing is the immunity to psyker magic that will make a big difference (suck it double lash list!)
With Vect despite him not having EW I have heard some very good things about him
The Baron sounds really fun to do besides if your enemy saw soo many hellion his face would be priceless garunteed.
I'm still unsure with lelith she can sure pump out alot of attacks but I feel she would be somewhat screwed without support from wyches or hexatrix bloodbrides
Rakarth in my mind lost the charm he had before but thats just me
Yeah that dose hinder the decapitator but I think I could try and get some use out of him

Better to take the Baron with a super unit of Hellions rather than lots of little bitty ones to make up your scoring units. Hellions aren't good troops.

With the way DE rules work big units are obviously better to max your token effect on more models. The Baron's Stealth and reroll everything conferred to a single unit makes him such a good force multiplier that you want him to multiply the biggest force allowable.

Take him with 20 Hellions. Blow away a unit with their good shooting, that's your FNP. With cover saves you're 3+ followed by 4+ against flak, 4+ against majority of templates, 3+ against Str 6 AP/2, etc.

Then you factor in the unit is fast enough to be where you want and your opponent is hardpressed to just ignore that. It shoots, assaults, It can hit and run against units with ICs to be immune to enemy shooting following your assault phase, scores, everything. The unit is such a pain in the ass and magnet for your opponent's attention it would be able to slot into a lot of builds.

As far as I can see Lelith isn't worth 175 points when a Succubus does nearly the same as her for over 100 points less.

Duke Sliscus is a nice choice if you're taking Kabalite Trueborn and wyches, cause the trueborn get 2+ poisoned splinter rifles (which if using splinter racks re-roll to hit!) and wyches can reroll which combat drugs they use.

Other than that...

No-one really shines through. Baron Hellion is good if you want a skyboard army....

Everyone else is overpriced and not as useful as a Haemonculus IMO

If the decapitator was around marbo's pricing or at least T4 ET he would be better. I wonder why GW is afraid of units that assault after DS. It makes much more sense for shadow beings to strike before the enemy realizes they're there

Cause that would be far too fluffy

Baron plus 14 Hellions. Add 2x 15 Hellions. Attach Haemys to each squad at deployment, then leave 1st turn. BAM! 45 FnP, Jump Pack "Wyches", that can shoot and be quite messy in assault.

Sanctjud wrote:If I do, Baron, to get scoring Surf-Boarders.

Hellions are still not a competitive unit.
They operate at close range but are not very resilient against incoming fire
and they are questionable in cc especially against MEQ or an overwhelming unit.

And here I thought you'd know me well enough by now :-(

Resilient to incoming fire: 2+ Cover saves and FNP is quite nice of a delivery.
They don't have to bunch up and don't cost that much.

I'd like to second Halfpast_Yellow's post.

As for combat, that's not really their point.
They will always be initiating combats and likely to have 2 tokens by that point.

So they will have 3 attacks at a respectable str and int with furious charge, they have def/off grenades, they have one agonizer and the Baron's glorified combat attacks...

It's like........ a dagger-hammer....

/shrug.

It doesn't have to be a competitive unit for me to use it.
Honestly Wuestenfux... i'm the guy that put up the "Possessed, The Cup Half Full."... this choice shouldn't be all that crazy

How are they questionable? Just take 2 squads both scoring if you have baron and have his unit of hellions outlfank and press the enemy, the other hellion sqaud can go conest and even claim objectives fast. I dont think hordes would be too big a problem I mean they still can pump out enough shots to soften the enemy up I dont think they are something to be overlooked. Still kinda wondering infact if anyone will actually use scourges kinda too

Hellions can outflank?
I don't remember them getting Scouts or Infiltrate...

I was just happy they are jump troops that turbo, IIRC, and can lurk in Reserves.

I'll be fielding Duke Sliscus, due to the rules he gives the army.

The Serpent's Venom will allow me to make one ultra-killy unit. I'll probably go with a maxed-out unit of Warriors with Splinter cannons, as this will provide the greatest number of poison shots one unit can muster (up to 48).

I also really like Low Orbit Raid, since it allows certain heavy-firepower units in Raiders to strike with their full firepower on the turn they arrive (which is difficult for most of the units unless you have this rule or a Webway portal, because most players will probably deploy to try to deny you Alpha strike).

Sanctjud wrote:Hellions can outflank?
I don't remember them getting Scouts or Infiltrate...

I was just happy they are jump troops that turbo, IIRC, and can lurk in Reserves.

If you put them with the baron then yes but only the sqaud with the baron


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus666 wrote:I'll be fielding Duke Sliscus, due to the rules he gives the army.

The Serpent's Venom will allow me to make one ultra-killy unit. I'll probably go with a maxed-out unit of Warriors with Splinter cannons, as this will provide the greatest number of poison shots one unit can muster (up to 48).

I also really like Low Orbit Raid, since it allows certain heavy-firepower units in Raiders to strike with their full firepower on the turn they arrive (which is difficult for most of the units unless you have this rule or a Webway portal, because most players will probably deploy to try to deny you Alpha strike).

Ouch that is so many freaking poisoned attackes, I'm sure before long ork and nid players will absolutely despise fighting the DE
Yes low orbit raid is one of the most useful assets our army can possibly gain from a hero