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The spark that lit the powder keg: "Wouldn't shortening the flying stem on a Valkyrie base be modding to advantage and breaking the rules?"

In general modelling conversation, my buddy, gets super defensive about this question. Friend jumps in and the dialogue turns quite swiftly into a heated debate between those two. I am at a loss to find a definitive answer, however I'm leaning towards "Yes, it would be modding to advantage and breaking the rules..."

Here's what I figure;

1. Rules state models must use bases they are provided with...
2. Rules state you can use a bigger base but not a smaller base in lieu of original base...
3. Valkyrie is provided a black base and a clear flying stem...
4. Rules state skimmers use a clear flying base...
5. Valkyrie is a skimmer, is provided with a black base AND a clear flying stem...
6. So you must use the black base and clear flying stem, however if you want you could use a larger base or flying stem...

Quoting the rules is important to my buddy, and he'll flip flop between standard/apocalypse games in his examples, so all over the map with arguments!

What's the answer? Anyone got any opinions, standard/apocalypse advice are both welcome!

Nowhere does it state that it's OK to use a bigger base. The rule is use the base the model comes with (period).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Nowhere does it state that it's OK to use a bigger base. The rule is use the base the model comes with (period).

Right, so is the flying stem part of the base? Or is it a flying stem?

lord_mongol wrote:Right, so is the flying stem part of the base? Or is it a flying stem?

It's a flying stem, and is a part of the base.

If you alter the base, you technically need your opponent's permission to field the model.


Having said that, it's really not that huge an issue. Lowering the model reduces its LOS profile... but also reduces LOS from the vehicle, as it is now lower down and can't see as easily over obstacles. And not everyone is using the GW model. The Forgeworld one doesn't even (or didn't, originally at least) have a base... it just sits on the table.

using a larger base was 4th edition and believe people abused this. I remember seeing in one tourny a greater deamon mounted on a 12 inch diameter base. No joke.

Wy would anyone do that in 4th? well when you summoned a greater deamon you were allowed to place it outside your vehicle or within 6 inches of your aspiring champion. this gave it a very large assault radius

That's what I thought... Now where in the rules can you prove that? LOL - I'm not trying to be... difficult, but my buddy is!

Thanks again and in advance!

lord_mongol wrote:That's what I thought... Now where in the rules can you prove that? LOL - I'm not trying to be... difficult, but my buddy is!

There is nowhere that the rules specifically define what constitutes the 'base' and what doesn't. I'm a little puzzled as to what the flight stem would be considered to be if you don't count it as a part of the base, though.

Again, though, it's not really that big an issue. If he wants to push it and won't back down on his interpretation of the rules, you pretty much have two options: let him have his way, or don't play against him.

The base rule is on Page 3 suprisingly under Bases.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:The base rule is on Page 3 suprisingly under Bases.

So is the stand a part of the base or the model?


I have always interpreted it as being part of the base.

lord_mongol wrote:That's what I thought... Now where in the rules can you prove that? LOL - I'm not trying to be... difficult, but my buddy is!

Thanks again and in advance!

Is he arguing that the stem is not part of the base? So with that logic he has to actually model it on the base with no stem whatsoever.

That is part of what confuses me as well.

I'd have to go with the stand is part of the base as well. Unless he thinks that the stand is actually part of the Valk. Akin to the lower fin on a land speeder.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Unless he thinks that the stand is actually part of the Valk. Akin to the lower fin on a land speeder.

As crazy as some GW models are, I simply cannot imagine the Valk has an enormous transparent pole attached to the bottom that is supposed to ACTUALLY be on it lol.

You have two choices - model or base. It isnt part of the model (as it isnt in the instructions as part of the model) so it is part of the base.

The awesomeness rolls out! Thanks for the input folks!

Now, we've arrived at most of these conclusions, he however does not accept that the clear plastic flying stem is part of the black plastic base... It is some ethereal thing that wasn't provided with the model in order to base it? I don't know, kinda funny!

Truly, it isn't a big deal. I just don't want to see him end up trying to get into a tournament and being down a Valkyrie due to modelling choices, or to have people in the gaming crew suddenly refuse to play with him and his 'too short' Valkyrie.

Thanks again!

What does he consider it? It certainly isnt part of the model.

As you said, extreme issues sort themselves out - either in tournaments people won't play and get the TO to remove the model for breach of rules, or they simply play it as it if were on the taller base.

Melchiour wrote:

lord_mongol wrote:That's what I thought... Now where in the rules can you prove that? LOL - I'm not trying to be... difficult, but my buddy is!

Thanks again and in advance!

Is he arguing that the stem is not part of the base? So with that logic he has to actually model it on the base with no stem whatsoever.

Yes, he argues this... With an interesting point: In Apocalypse, the Valkyrie is a flyer, so it can see and be seen by everyone, so it doesn't matter how it is modelled. To be honest, not to sure on this rule!

However, for 5th ed, TLOS means it totally matters what can be seen, so it does matter how it is modelled. Which to me is the heart of the dilema. I think the Apocalypse rules matter little in relation to how something should be modelled as Apocalypse is more like an expansion to the standard game, thus any thing modelled correctly under the standard rules should be able to played in an Apocalypse game with no issues.

There is no dillemma: use the base the model comes with, with no alterations allowed. The stem is part of the base.

Anythign else requires opponents permission each and every game.

lord_mongol wrote:
Yes, he argues this... With an interesting point: In Apocalypse, the Valkyrie is a flyer, so it can see and be seen by everyone, so it doesn't matter how it is modelled. To be honest, not to sure on this rule!

Actually, I'm not aware of a place where the Valkyrie exists in Apoc. Is he thinking of the IA rules? If so, it's not a skimmer, it's a flyer. You don't put it on any base, and it counts as being seen everywhere, as mentioned.

However, for 5th ed, TLOS means it totally matters what can be seen, so it does matter how it is modelled. Which to me is the heart of the dilema. I think the Apocalypse rules matter little in relation to how something should be modelled as Apocalypse is more like an expansion to the standard game, thus any thing modelled correctly under the standard rules should be able to played in an Apocalypse game with no issues.

Then the answer is simple: If it's not part of the base, then it's part of the model. It now counts as part of the model for TLOS and you can slam him for modeling for advantage when he tries to cut it down. Also, nowhere in the permissive ruleset does it say that you can shorten that (or any) piece any more than it says anywhere that you can cut the wings off.