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What type of Terminators do you prefer? What are your thoughts on their effectiviness/price?

I almost never see regular Terminators fielded. What is so bad about them compared to Assault Terminators? What have been your experiences with each type?

Which codex?

Any loyalist Marines

It all depends on what the rest of my list looks like.

If i need a good tactical unit; I will take regular termies

If I need a Strong assault unit; I will take Assault termies

If i am in desperate need of a Hammer and Anvil unit I will take TH/SS Termies

You are asking us to compare Apples and Oranges.

Or an even better analogy would be simply asking: "What is better a spoon or a fork?"

scubasteve04 wrote:What type of Terminators do you prefer? What are your thoughts on their effectiviness/price?

I almost never see regular Terminators fielded. What is so bad about them compared to Assault Terminators? What have been your experiences with each type?

assault terminators have awesome close combat abilities and improved survivability. the only thing they give up to get it is some marginally effective shooting attacks. and they cost the same amount of points. so assault terminators are almost always the way to go.

Well, to a well balanced SM army (lets say shooty for discussion purposes), would you add 10 Tactical terminators with heavy weapons, or a land raider with TH SS terminators?

Generally speaking, TH/SS Termis are one of the scariest units in the game, and capable of handling almost any threat, with the possible exception of a huge gang of slugga boyz. Slightly less so in the BA army because they're more expensive. They have the advantage of a 3+ invulnerable save which makes them basically unstoppable--what they lose is a few bolter shots and a couple of missiles, which aren't often missed compared to making them twice as tough (at least against most of the weapons that'll be used against them). They also have improved anti-tank and anti-MC ability from their thunder hammers, areas in which they already excel. For an investment of 200 points, they offer you either a good chance of killing whatever they run into, or a 24" diameter circle of area denial for anything your opponent wants to use. With only a 5+ save, regular termis need to be a lot more conservative with who they take on and how, a tactic that has lost effectiveness due to the proliferation of 1st- and 2nd-turn assault armies.

depends on what the rest of the list is doing. land raiders are kind of risky.... I would never try to rush the opponent with just a land raider and its contents. if the rest of the army is shooting at long range then I guess I would default for the tactical terminators, although really I dont think you need or want terminators at all in a shooty list.

Assault Termies are the strongest assault unit in the Vanilla codex IMO. So if you don't already have a dedicated assault unit (assault marines, ironclad dread, even bikes possibly), then assault terminators are the way to go. The problem with tactical terminators is that there are so many shooting units in the Vanilla 'dex, that perform equally or better than them for less. Plus they are entirely armed with power fists (aside from the sarge) that can't be substituted, which makes them relatively easy to beat in CC. The one thing they do really well is providing a great platform for heavy weapons (heavy flamers, and the phenominally awesome cyclone launcher). Plus, with the ability to give the entire unit inexpensive chainfists, they are able to eat any vehicle alive.

So, assault termies are unparalleled in their assault abilities in the vanilla dex. Tactical termies are good, but there are cheaper equally effective shooty units in the vanilla codex.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:depends on what the rest of the list is doing. land raiders are kind of risky.... I would never try to rush the opponent with just a land raider and its contents. if the rest of the army is shooting at long range then I guess I would default for the tactical terminators, although really I dont think you need or want terminators at all in a shooty list.

230 points for 2 missile and 10 bolter shots, on the move.

Only Sternguard Squads can get close to that with 2 missiles and 3 special ammo bolters for 135 points and they have to stay still for it, or Devs can get 4 missiles and 1 Bolter for 150(and also remain stationary).

Or you could always spend the same 230 for 5 termies and an Assault cannon netting 8 Bolters and 4 rending shots(which is good for deepstriking near-ish enemy lines and shooting up hidden/entrenched units)

you can buy land speeder typhoons and shoot more krak missiles and heavier bolts for less points.
if tactical termies are your go to guys for shooty space marines.... you're doing it wrong.

Terms are a lot more durable then Speeders

point is there are better ways to get your firepower in that codex than tactical terminators.

Assault terminators are a frightningly effective assault unit that survive as well against power weapons and plasma as regular marines do against lasguns. Tactical terminators give up that survivability for a little bit of firepower similar to what you can get elsewhere. Codex marines have a lot of good stuff that uses elite slots, like Sternguard, assault terminators, and drednoughts, so you can't just slap down a squad of terminators in most lists the way that you could a tactical squad or speeder squadron.

It's not that regular terminators are a bad unit, they're just not an impressive unit, and since assault terminators cost less and take the same force org slot, regular terminators tend to not get any use.

Terminators have a minimum range of 24", they can shoot, and then assault. The ability to engage units up to 48" away (though more usually 24" away...) means that Terminators can be more dangerous to more targets.

Every turn your Assault Terminators could have been shooting something they've been wasted. So Assault Terminators come with the ancillary cost of a Land Raider to deliver them. If they deep strike then they're sitting ducks. And they'd have to Deep Strike within 12" of something worth their effect or else they're out on a limb for two turns.

Assault Terminators do gain a benefit from swapping a Storm Bolter for a Storm Shield, in that they get a 100% increase in their resistance to AP2 weapons. Their resistance to AP3+ weapons, however, is unchanged. If a Space Marine Tactical Squad fires 9 Bolters and 1 Lascannon at Terminator Squad, then the Terminators are in more danger from the Bolters than the Lascannon.

9*(4/6)*(3/6)*(1/6) = 0.50
18*(4/6)*(3/6)*(1/6) = 1.00

1*(4/6)*(5/6)*(4/6) = 0.37 expected unsaved wounds.

A Lascannon gets worse against Assault Terminators with Storm Shields, but the numbers for the Bolters won't get worse.

Doesn't mean Assault Terminators are worse, because in their own sweet spot they are undoubtedly better than regular Terminators. You have to ask yourself though: Do you feel confident that you'll be fighting in the specialized environement that caters to the strengths of Assault Terminators, or will you face a wider variety of opponents and conditions.

I talked about this concept here. In general I rather take Assault Terminators because they are better, but as I discuss in the article "Vanilla" Terminators have their place in lists as well. Particularly as some mobile Dev squads or as flamer squads of doom when paired with libby's. Check out the link if you're interested in a more in-depth analysis I made.

You also have the option to combat squad two Assault Cannons into the same 5 man squad, anchor your line with those 5, then 'port the other five in where they can cause a headache that HAS to be dealt with.

Fifty wrote:You also have the option to combat squad two Assault Cannons into the same 5 man squad, anchor your line with those 5, then 'port the other five in where they can cause a headache that HAS to be dealt with.

True, I didn't talk about that at all in my article... I just don't see the assault cannon as a good option for the price. I find the combat squaded terminators with 2 Cyclones as a great mobile Dev squad and drop the other 5 in for headache causing goodness. But I may try out that Assault Cannon anchor too, sounds like a good idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Fifty wrote:You also have the option to combat squad two Assault Cannons into the same 5 man squad, anchor your line with those 5, then 'port the other five in where they can cause a headache that HAS to be dealt with.

I hadn't thought of that, I didn't talk about that at all in my article at all... I just don't see the assault cannon as a good option for the price. I find the combat squaded terminators with 2 Cyclones as a great mobile Dev squad and drop the other 5 in for headache causing goodness. But I may try out that Assault Cannon anchor too, sounds like a good idea.

The effectiveness of assault terminators has been absolutely beaten to death. The effectiveness of tactical terminators has not been.

If you need a unit that can put out light infantry firepower and have good survivability, then tactical terminators are a good choice. Against orks, there are times when mass bolter fire beats letting your assault termies walk in, get locked in combat and eaten alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^ light infantry firepower meaning storm bolters.

+ what single infantry model can fire 2 frag/krak and 2 storm bolter shots in one turn?

and we dont even need to discuss how awesome assault cannons are.

Jaon wrote:Against orks, there are times when mass bolter fire beats letting your assault termies walk in, get locked in combat and eaten alive.

Absolutely true. I rarely take two squads of assault terminators if I know my opponent runs orks. In that case I take 5 TH/SS in LRR and 10 Terminators w/2HF. One of the units I hated running into the most with my Orks (I played the horde list 90-120 boyz on foot in any list I took) was Terminators with CML or HF accompanied by a libby or two with the Avenger power. Nasty.

While I greatly prefer Assault Terminators mounted in Land Raiders... I have seen a 10-man Terminator squad, with 2x Cyclone Missile Launchers and Lysander put to good use.

20 Twin-Linked Storm Bolters, plus 4 Frag Missiles is fantastic anti-horde.

Assault terminators are basically superior in every way

Terminators really aren't good gun totes at all, what with regular old storm bolters and the option for an autocannon and all that jazz.

Assault terminators are usually just complete rape on the field, especially when they pop out of redeemer/crusader with multiple thunder hammers and lightning claws. You can guarantee they'll destroy the other unit, or any tanks or dreadnoughts in their way

Jaon wrote:Against orks, there are times when mass bolter fire beats letting your assault termies walk in, get locked in combat and eaten alive.

what ork unit would you prefer to shoot with bolters rather than charge with assault terminators? maybe its because I dont play against orks that often but I cant think of any off the top of my head....

^^^Big ol' squads of boys with a PK toting nob. Lots of bodies to absorb the relatively small number of attacks the terminators dish out, and a metric ass-ton of saves to make them take. Sure, most of those saves will be made, but they'll still get tarpitted and slowly worn down by the sheer volume of attacks. Make you opponent roll enough dice and 1s are bound to pop up, eventually.

the orks will take no retreat wounds every round of combat. you might be surprised how fast a 30 boy squad will melt.... especially if the assault terminators get the charge.

Yah a full squad of sluggas is 30 boyz. They put out +100 attacks. Make anything roll enough and it'll die.

Which is why you take lightning claws when you're up against orks, rather than thunder hammers

yeah. you dont always want the thunderhammers.

How much does it cost for double LCs for loyalists? They're 10 points for CSM, which I think is less than average...

they're free on assault terminators. chaos and imperial terminators w/lightning claws end up costing the same since chaos terminators are 30 points base.