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I apologize if this has come up before, but I couldn't find anything using the search.

My opponent had an immobilized ironclad dreadnought with two underslung heavy flamers. I had a infantry squad that was located behind and to the left of the dread. On my opponent's turn he placed a template toward the back-left to hit my squad (about 90-120 degrees from where the arm was pointing). Is this legit?

If so, is it because even when immobilized that the dread can pivot at the waist before firing, or are templates fired from vehicles able to be placed at any angle from the gun tip?

Thank you for any help!

How many cans of worms can one rules question ask?

Can #1: The walker probably only has line of sight directly forward in a 45 degree arc from its weapons. Vehicle line of sight from the weapons, and walker weapons are considered hull mounted weapons. If the model doesn't have line of sight to the target, it can't fire. But line of sight in general is poorly defined, and doesn't interact well with the walker "pivot to face the target unit" rules. Some people just throw their hands in the air and house rule that you draw line of sight from the sarcophagus on the front of the dreadnought (after it's turned, if possible).

Can #2: An immobilized walker probably can't pivot to face the unit. An immobilized vehicle can't move; walker rules say to pivot to face the target; pivoting on the spot doesn't count as moving. It's a three way rules death match that normally gets resolved with "Don't break any rule if you can help it" and concluding that the immobilized walker doesn't turn.

Can #3: If the walker has line of sight to the target, then it can fire the flamer and angle it however it needs to in order to cover the most models in the target unit. And, of course, you get into the "do you place the template in contact with the walker's base or the weapon" side controversy.

Being generous, if the dreadnought didn't rotate to face your unit, and it didn't have line of sight from the sarcophagus on front to one or more members of the target squad, then the dreadnought shouldn't have fired at all. If it did have line of sight, the the bank shot with the flamer was probably okay.

Sweet cans Solkan

solkan wrote:Can #2: An immobilized walker probably can't pivot to face the unit. An immobilized vehicle can't move; walker rules say to pivot to face the target; pivoting on the spot doesn't count as moving. It's a three way rules death match that normally gets resolved with "Don't break any rule if you can help it" and concluding that the immobilized walker doesn't turn.

Immobilised vehicles cannot pivot. BGB, p57, last paragraph after "Vehicles and Movement". So no, the walker could not have fired at the unit that was behind him. I find myself having to constantly remind opponents about the 45° arc of fire on walkers...

The placement of the template is trickier, since p29 tells us to place the template so it's touching the base of the firer, while p72 tells us to measure ranges for walkers from the weapon itself. But placing the template isn't measuring the weapon's range. But the weapon's range characteristic is "Template". And what about vehicles without a base? Gah!

In the interest of sanity, just measure the template from the weapon itself as you would for any other weapon.

I would treat the top of the walker like a turret. A turret mounted gun on a Predator can still traverse after being immobilized. May seem cheezy but I would allow the shot.

Priesmal wrote:I would treat the top of the walker like a turret.

A fairly common suggestion from players who only have any experience with Marine walkers on the table. Sentinels, War Walkers, Deff Dredds, Killer Kans, Penitent Engines... or in other words, every other walker in the game, lacks the ability to turn completely around at the waist. In some cases there is no waist joint at all.

A turret mounted gun on a Predator can still traverse after being immobilized.

That's because turrets are actually defined as having a 360 degree fire arc. Walker weapons, by contrast, are defined specifically as having a 45 degree arc to the front.

insaniak wrote:

Priesmal wrote:I would treat the top of the walker like a turret.

A fairly common suggestion from players who only have any experience with Marine walkers on the table. Sentinels, War Walkers, Deff Dredds, Killer Kans, Penitent Engines... or in other words, every other walker in the game, lacks the ability to turn completely around at the waist. In some cases there is no waist joint at all.

A turret mounted gun on a Predator can still traverse after being immobilized.

That's because turrets are actually defined as having a 360 degree fire arc. Walker weapons, by contrast, are defined specifically as having a 45 degree arc to the front.

You're right, I was not thinking of anything but the chaos and imperial walkers, though in my defense he did post it was an ironclad dread.

So then I would say if it is an Imperial-style (to include Chaos) dread, the immobilize result still allows the turret to move. Sentinels and the like with hull mounted weaoons have fire a 45 degree arc, as per BRB. The vehicle shooting rules are very clear where you are shooting from, regardless of bases. Orky dreads and the like with weapons mounted on arms operate like sponsons. It depends on the vehicle in question. Just because the vehicle is immobilized (ie: cannot walk) does not mean the arms cannot point in the appropriate direction. The fire arc would have to be based off the model itself.

Priesmal wrote:
You're right, I was not thinking of anything but the chaos and imperial walkers, though in my defense he did post it was an ironclad dread.

So then I would say if it is an Imperial-style (to include Chaos) dread, the immobilize result still allows the turret to move. Sentinels and the like with hull mounted weaoons have fire a 45 degree arc, as per BRB. The vehicle shooting rules are very clear where you are shooting from, regardless of bases. Orky dreads and the like with weapons mounted on arms operate like sponsons. It depends on the vehicle in question. Just because the vehicle is immobilized (ie: cannot walk) does not mean the arms cannot point in the appropriate direction. The fire arc would have to be based off the model itself.

Veto.

Rules should apply equally to all armies. Either let all immobilized walkers turn in the shooting phase, or none.

Grakmar wrote:Veto.

Rules should apply equally to all armies. Either let all immobilized walkers turn in the shooting phase, or none.

Veto overruled. All walkers are not created equal. They have different weapons, different armor values and different upgrades. Going by older editions, the first immobilized stopped them from walking, the second killed the turrets and left all guns pointing in a fixxed direction.

Going by older rules is just silly. There are a lot of things that have changed, which is why we have new codices and FAQs to go with our new rulebook. Walkers is a distinct catagory of vehicles. The rules for walkers cover all walkers equally. Where there is an exception to a certain rule it will be listed in the specific walker's codex entry. There is no rule for dreadnaughts, of any type, being able to count their weapons the same as "turret mounted weapons" therefore they don't count as anything other than hull mounted (as per the general rule).

Priesmal wrote:They have different weapons, different armor values and different upgrades.

Yes, walkers are created differant, but the Unit Type: Walker is the same no matter what. Since immobile dreads can't piviot to prevent cc attacks to the rear, you have no rule to stand on saying they can do so to fire.

In my opinion, claiming that the SM and CSM walkers act as if their weapons are turret mounted simply because their model looks like they can pivot is a pretty flimsy argument.

Walkers have their own rules for how they fire weapons. Barring any special rules available for a specific walker, all walkers fire their weapons in the same manner.

Priesmal wrote:So then I would say if it is an Imperial-style (to include Chaos) dread, the immobilize result still allows the turret to move.

Except, again, there is no turret.

The Walker rules state that weapons mounted on a walker only have a 45 degree arc. Without something in the codex that specifically over-rides this limitation, it makes no difference how the weapons are mounted on the model.

Just because the vehicle is immobilized (ie: cannot walk) does not mean the arms cannot point in the appropriate direction. The fire arc would have to be based off the model itself.

Indeed. And on the actual model, the weapons only pivot up and down. The rules never say that you can turn the vehicle's body when aiming the weapons, only pivot the weapons on their mounts.