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Well I've played around 5-6 games of Fantasy now and I'm keeping up a decent total of victories (Only lost my first game!), but I've run into a bit of a stump and before I start putting out rubbish trial armies I thought I'd get some input from the experts.

So far we've been playing at the 2000 point level and that means 3 core choices, I tend to put 20 in each of the units and will always buy them the standard bearer, so that's at least 750 points gone. Of course to boost their effectiveness, I also tend to put a Herald in at least two of my core units if not all three, so another 300 odd points gone. Add to that lot a Battle Standard Bearer, a Greater Daemon lord choice and a few upgrades here and there and I've just about used up all my spare points.

Problem with all that is it never leaves enough points to really try out other special or rare choices, so what I want to know is: Should I cut back on the points I spend on core? They seem to be extremely effective as they are and I don't know whether they would maintain that effectiveness if I start chopping out ranks or dropping the Heralds.

Does anyone else have experience with this or is it an uncommon problem?

Sounds like youre playing 7th edition?

In 8th you dont have to have a minimum number of core, however you do have to spend at least 25% of your poiints on core - so at least 500

7th and 8th play very differently in terms of core etc - in 7th you could have minimal core (3x10 horrors, for example) and rely on BT, Fleshhounds with Khorne herald BSB and similar to do the job.

GMR wrote:So far we've been playing at the 2000 point level and that means 3 core choices, I tend to put 20 in each of the units and will always buy them the standard bearer, so that's at least 750 points gone. Of course to boost their effectiveness, I also tend to put a Herald in at least two of my core units if not all three, so another 300 odd points gone. Add to that lot a Battle Standard Bearer, a Greater Daemon lord choice and a few upgrades here and there and I've just about used up all my spare points.

Problem with all that is it never leaves enough points to really try out other special or rare choices, so what I want to know is: Should I cut back on the points I spend on core? They seem to be extremely effective as they are and I don't know whether they would maintain that effectiveness if I start chopping out ranks or dropping the Heralds.

On top of what Nos said, the bolded bit above is your issue. Greater Daemons are EXPENSIVE. If you choose to run one, you're choosing to forgo a bunch of other options. You can pass on the Greater Daemon, though, and let a Herald be your General - that frees up a lot of points to experiment with the other options.

Daemons are an expensive list - you won't be able to fit in every toy you might want to, so you'll have to make decisions. If you want a Greater Daemon, you'll have to skimp on the Fiends; if you want a whole bunch of Flamers, you might not be able to bring out the Flesh Hounds.

In 8e, large core blocks are very valuable; large core blocks of daemons are very expensive, and Heralds a such a useful boost to them as to be difficult to cut. But yes, it's going to crimp your style a bit.

I've been running a lordless 2k list with great results. 3 heralds and the blus scribes, 3 core units, flamers(uber fun) and Fiends (just need the models)

The good thing is that you can shift some of your Magic needs to Core, and still have a good model count.

It seems I've been taking my notes from the codex rather than the main rulebook, I do only need 25 percent core but the first chart I saw was the one in my book which is what I've been using. That makes things easier!

I like the ideas I'm hearing though. Weirdly it just never crossed my mind to drop the Greater Daemon, it just seems so normal a part of my list, but I can see how much more I'd be able to field without it.

So far I've tested Flamers and Flesh hounds and both impressed me with their performance, so I definitely want to try out those again, next I'm looking into testing Screamers and Fiends see if they're any use.

Cool, as long as youre talking the same game as we are (8th) that helps! If you havent already, check out the Errata - needed for all armybooks right now.

Flamers and Fiends are where it is at - the volume of attacks fiends put out, plus Stomp! make them golden.

I've got a full copy of the errata printed just recently, though I notice it's had minor tweaks since then - Dark Insanity now allows you to go above 10 attacks, not bad!

Slightly off topic here, but it saves me creating a new thread - Does anyone know if the Blue Scribes can join a unit such as Screamers? I'd look it up myself, but I've currently lent my rulebook to a first time fantasy player so he can get up to speed for our games this weekend.

Fiends do seem like a good choice, they move fast enough that I'll probably be getting flank charges most of the time and I can see them doing some serious damage from there.

Edit: Just noticed on the errata the Blue Scribes may join friendly units, solves that problem.

I think everyone else has hit it pretty well on the head with this one - GD's costing you upwards of 450-500 points with a basic set up is alot of core troops that you are giving up. Yes they can be extremely killy, but where they are hurting now is that as long as the enemy unit has 5 guys left or more, they'll be steadfast.

Where big Daemon core units really shine now is points denial in my opinion - you take a unit of 40 bloodletters, and it is going to take ALOT to wipe them off the board short of massed, massed artillery fire (which should be taken care of by so many of the ultrafast special/rare choices.

Honestly I try to keep my core units up around 50% of my army - take them in large enough blocks that they won't die easily and you'll be fine.

BTW - not sure what GD you run, but I'm still finding the Keeper, Lvl 1, Siren Song, Torment Blade to be the most cost effective and tactically flexible one out there. Nothing like 6 Str 6 Armor Piercing, ASF, Rerollable misses coming every turn, plus being able to disrupt enemy formations and plans turn 1 with popping Siren Song on them. Very nasty.

GMR wrote:I've got a full copy of the errata printed just recently, though I notice it's had minor tweaks since then - Dark Insanity now allows you to go above 10 attacks, not bad!

Slightly off topic here, but it saves me creating a new thread - Does anyone know if the Blue Scribes can join a unit such as Screamers? I'd look it up myself, but I've currently lent my rulebook to a first time fantasy player so he can get up to speed for our games this weekend.

Fiends do seem like a good choice, they move fast enough that I'll probably be getting flank charges most of the time and I can see them doing some serious damage from there.

Edit: Just noticed on the errata the Blue Scribes may join friendly units, solves that problem.

yes they can.

Try them out if you want, but Screamers aren't worth their points, IMO. They're not good in combat, only have 1 wound, and their ability to hit units they pass over isn't generally going to affect the game. If you're looking for warmachine hunters, mounted Daemonettes are much better.

Seekers worked wonderfully for me this weekend, in place of fiends, however, a bit less survivable for the same point costs.