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I'm seeing a lot of hydra threads, and the most important one is missing.

Hydra V Autocannon Heavy Weapons Squad/HWS

Cost is equal down to the last point.

Firepower: Goes to HWS

Average # of hits per turn 6AC shots=4TL AC shots
Hydra can negate cover bonus from flat out & turbo boost
HWS can force rerolls on any cover save with a successful order
HWS can twin link it's 6 shots for 50% more firepower than a Hydra with a successful order, but only against vehicles and MC.

Firepower goes to HWS in every scenario except when the hydra actually gets to use it's auto targeting system, which is the vast majority of targets. The HWS 50% outguns the Hydra when it comes to cracking transports and wounding MC under the bring it down order.

Durability: Goes to Hydra
Hydra is 12/10/10 not good, but not bad either.
Good possibility of 12/10/10 target saturation.
Never has to make morale or pinning checks
Immune to small arms fire in the front arc.
Can bet stunned/shaken
Immobilized =destroyed if squadroned
Can be destroyed in a single hit

HWS T3 W2=crap
Can gain 4+ cover saves much easier than a hydra
Always gets to shoot, never takes stunned/shaken results
Vulnerable to small arms, especially rapid fire
Can be pinned/fail moral test
Very squishy in CC
Can be insta killed, but no 1 single wound will kill more than 1 team.
If things get real bad they can go to ground for a 3+ cover

Durability is complicated, but overall I think the Hydra has a slight edge.

Mobility=Hydra wins
HWS can't move and shoot.

Force Org=HWS wins
Hydras can squadron but take an often coveted heavy support slot
HWS are a troops choice and are thus a scoring unit.

It's a very tight race between Hydras and AC HWS, so why is it Hydras are so popular and AC HWS are seen far less often?
I'm a fan of 2 AC HWS because my list already has a CCS that can issue the bring it down order twice a turn, but that's just my personal preference.
The Hydra V AC HWS is such a close race it's like debating Almond Joy Versus Mounds, both are flavored with lots of delicious AC.

For 75 points, you can't beat a hydra if you take two. The autocannon has a similar gun to the Exterminator for half the points.

Thus, instead of using two battle cannons and an exterminator, take two battle cannons and two hydras. More Dakka for the same point cost. You can move and shoot, targeting two targets (or the same one) for the Exterminator effect or stand still and blast the living crap out of the same targets with twice as much firepower.

Sure it's not as well armored, but if you're spending the points for the exterminator tank, and you've got the slots, two hydras might be a better option.

That said, it all matters where your points are. If you've already got the platoons and are out of Heavy support slots, take the cannons and run. If you're running mech guard, take the Hydras.

Because against the types targets that it's worth bringing autocannons at all against, the hydra both ignores cover AND is ALWAYS twin-linked, while the HWS can only be one at a time, and that's even if they pass their orders (which is far from guaranteed). Plus, the hydra also gets a free heavy bolter.

The hydra is better in every situation over the HWS except for circumstances that they autocannon is terrible in (like digging GEq out of 4+ cover). It makes sense, given that the hydra is in the heavy support choice, that it should do more raw damage.

Really, the only reason someone should ever take a autocannon HWS (apart from that they have no other vehicles on the board, but still...) is because they want something which counts as scoring. Otherwise, there isn't much purpose...

I don't see the Hydra firepower advantage, and in most situations the HWS has more firepower.

Both are S7 AP4 AC

Mathhammer average hits
4 Hydra TLAC shots=3 hits
6 HWS AC shots=3 hits
That's equal firepower on average rolls with no orders.

Against Vehicles or MC
4 Hydra TLAC shots=3 hits
6 HWS AC shots failing orders=3 hits
6 HWS TLACshots on orders=4.5 hits

That's equal firepower when orders fail, and 50% more hits in favor of the HWS when orders go off.

Since the main use of AC is against light vehicles and MC the HWS has more firepower except when the hydra gets to use it's auto targeting system.

the big thing to remember is that heavy weapon teams only mesh well with an infantry heavy gunline. Hydras can drop into a mech list very nicely.

Hydras can shoot when moving, which is important when coming out of reserves.

I think their value comes down partially to how much S6 high ROF weapons you see. HWSes melt pretty quiickly against assault cannons and the like.

it comes down to 1 thing for me. you can't Lash my Hydra into the open, or to where it can't fire.
and as A-man has mentioned, you may not get those orders every turn and you also get a free HB.
which, as pitiful as it is, should also be figured in the the #'s that have been crunched already. if you
run three Hydras, that's 9 extra shots down range.

Ld 6 mean you wont be pulling off BiD or Fire on my Target reliably. it also means that if they take any fire they might be hoofing it off the board. The HWS is also more of an investment for someone who doesn't run platoons.
The Hydra also has more Range than the HWS. Don't get me wrong I think both have their place but I think the hydra is the better unit.
Also if I wanted a scoring unit to sit back I'd probably take a squad of morters as they are cheaper can hide out of LOS and don't draw the attention of the other player as much.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Volkan wrote:Ld 6 mean you wont be pulling off BiD or Fire on my Target reliably. it also means that if they take any fire they might be hoofing it off the board. The HWS is also more of an investment for someone who doesn't run platoons.
The Hydra also has more Range than the HWS. Don't get me wrong I think both have their place but I think the hydra is the better unit.
Also if I wanted a scoring unit to sit back I'd probably take a squad of morters as they are cheaper can hide out of LOS and don't draw the attention of the other player as much.

Cheers,
~Volkan

I forgot about that. to make the HWS better (i know you don't have to do this) you almost need a Standard or LC to help the orders go off and or stick around.
so now you've added(possibly) a HQ, and at least a standard to make the HWS function better. the Hydra is TL for 75 pts, no extras needed.

Polonius wrote:Hydras can shoot when moving, which is important when coming out of reserves.

Oh, and this. Putting just two HWSs on the field in a DoW mission makes guard players sad. Rolling in off the board and acing a DE raider the turn it arrives before it can get darklanced is a good thing.

Volkan wrote:The Hydra also has more Range than the HWS.

Oh, and this too. Yes, it's not terribly difficult to get things into range with a regular autocannon. They Hydra, on the other hand, allows you to be in range of your opponent while your opponent's guns can't reach the hydra. This lets you plant the hydras in the absolute corners of the board and always get to shoot, while at the same time avoiding a turn or two of shooting themselves.

Not enough opportunity cost is being attributed to the hydra.

Even if you thought that the autocannon HWS was slightly less efficient, then you still must acknowledge that taking them instead of hydras opens up heavy support slots.

Manticores, medusas, executioners, and battle tanks don't have analogs in other slots like the hydra does.

This doesn't make the hydra a bad investment. But I never take a hydra if I have a platoon in my list. If I am all mechvets, that is a different story.

If an army already has a CCS because the player likes having a CCS then the 2 bring it down orders are in a way free.

The destruction of a 75 point HWS at the hands of a lash prince and squad of obliterators is acceptable. They are after all expendable.

Leadership on a HWS is 7, so they will make orders over 50% of the time. With a 50% failure rate on orders a pair of HWS will average 1 pass 1 fail per turn, which means they will hit with an average of 7.5 AC shots per turn compared to 6 for a pair of Hydras

The unreadable variable is just how much AC HWS will be shot at. The thing to keep in mind is the list probably has a lot of melta vets, valks, and 3 heavy support choices left. Quite possibly the best thing about a pair of AC HWS is they can be in the same list as a trio of Manticores or Basilisks. It's hard to tell what IG units people will decide to shoot at.

You guys are bringing up excellent points about hydra advantages and HWS disadvantages. The HWS is defiantly more difficult to use, has greater risks, but imo along with the greater risks comes greater rewards.

As mentioned, you can't forget the HBs when calculating fire.

You also can't really consider orders, either, without at least mentioning the hard cost of a CCS, the opportunity cost or not ordering a different unit, and the movement cost of keeping the CCS in range. If you build around all this, the costs can me minimized, but you don't have to do that with a Hydra. . .

There are two reasons to consider AC HWTs (or HWTs at all, in my opinion): force org and scoring. With an aggressive army, it's nice occasionally to have a scoring unit that is still contributing to the fight instead of sitting on their bums. Also, at 1500, I almost always use all 3 Heavy Slots.

I guess you could also take them for model restrictions.

There are reasons to take AC HWTs, and I do occasionally, but you have to know why you're doing it, and not because they're better than Hydras.

Should be noted that the heavy weapon squad can only be issued one order per turn.

I must run mine "oddly", but I tend to put Missiles or LC's on the HWSs, and Heavy Stubbers on the Hydras... 10 shots/turn helps a lot with "crowd control", and with the change to transports moving fast losing their passengers if they get destroyed, I think I like the always on TL and ignoring the cover save for the vehicle over the ability to hide the lads in a crowd... :-) course, I usually run both the HWS and the Hydra...

Just skim reading but you also seem to be missing that a Hydra Autocannon is range 72", it can move and still fire 2 shots (read the description it's 2 TL Hydra Autocannons), a weapon destroyed result cuts the firepower in half.

Skim less, read more. It shows respect for the people and the conversation.

Yeah, the range, durability, and mobility really make the Hydra shine. but that is why it eats a HS support. HWS may be fragile, slow, and plagued by low morale, but they don't eat a slot and score.

I tend to use AC teams only in infantry squads where they get some ablative wounds as the base cost of HW teams is too high (IMO).

Two hydras for a HS leaves plenty of room for artillery and/or tanks. It's the advantage of vehicle squadrons.

ElCheezus wrote:Skim less, read more. It shows respect for the people and the conversation.

being honest and saying I skimmed the thread is more respectful than just posting and not admiting to the skimming.

Re-read and no one mentions the range or the fact that the main weapon is actually 2.

I feel the Hydra is better for many reasons,
1 you don't need to take a platoon 120 pts min +HW squad
if I'm not mistaken doesnt it now cost more than 2 hydras?

2 I can keep the Hydra stationary therefore allowing me to also fire the heavy bolter on it, 4s7+3s5

3 I don't think the HS slots are all that for IG, IMO the best 2 are the hydra and Manticore

4 I may not lose my Hydra to an assualt, whereas the HW team will get gobbled down by firewarriors in CC

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I feel the Hydra is better for many reasons,
1 you don't need to take a platoon 120 pts min +HW squad
if I'm not mistaken doesnt it now cost more than 2 hydras?

1 PCS + 2 squads + AC HW Squads = Same cost as 3 hydras. (225 pts). You're getting twice the firepower, and the ability to move and shoot half your firepower instead of remaining stationary.

I think it really boils down to whether or not you need the extra soring unit or heavy slot.

If you really need some more scoring units then a squad designed to sit somewhere all game like AC HWS is a good idea. Conversely if you are running low on the Heavy Support slots in your FoC then AC HWS are also an excellent choice.

If you don't need the extra scoring units and you have extra HS slots lying around (don't know why this would ever happen in a IG list...) the I say go for the Hydra because it seems slightly more survivable.

Another big thing with the Hydra is that it can "hide" behind Chimeras and fire over their hatches. This gives a mech army the ability to rank up, so to speak, adding longevity to the hydras and creating more AV12 saturation.

A pcs is 30 points nakkie, 50 with 4 flamers. Most 40k players have enough pyromania in them that they can never turn down 4 flamers for 20 points on a 30 point squad.

The real issue is infantry squads: love em or leave em. Pretty much every guard player has very strong opinions on regular infantry squads. I will say this, if an ig player hates regular infantry then hws is not an option for them. If an ig player likes platoons then the 130 points for a bare bones platoon has no place in this conversation, as no points were sacrificed because the player is taking stuff that would be in his list anyways. Complaining about the cost of a platoon in a list with hws is like complaining about the cost of melta vets in a list with hydras.