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In (all?) the previous editions of Warhammer Fantasy, as far as I know, magic items has always been hidden. Meaning you do not reveal them to your opponent before you actually use them. Is this rule this in effect in 8th edition of Fantasy, as I have not been able to find it in the BRB?

Consequently, we are soon holding a small friendly tournament in campus, and we are trying to figure out the best way to represent this. Our primary idea was to make two lists, one which would include all magic items, and another which wouldn't. This secondary list would pose a problem however, as you can easily figure out how -many- points a player has put into magic items, although not which items. I guess that's not that big of a deal.

The problem with two lists however is that we do not have any official referees. Since this is between friends of our Warhammer club, everyone wants to play in the tournament. Meaning we'll have a score system set up for the matches, and painting winners as well as sportsmanship winners will be tallied up by a form of vote system.

In such a case, we'd probably need people to submit their complete lists in an envelope, that can be checked at the end of the tournament. However this runs the risk of someone making a mistake, choosing a magic item he is not allowed to have, taking too many points and so forth.

Does Dakka have any better ideas how to handle this? That is of course assuming that Magic Items are still supposed to be kept hidden, otherwise it will be real easy.

I can't recall any change that would make you reveal your magic items...there are after all still items that can be taken to reveal what a model has. Tournie wise I think you are stuck with the two list option. Many items cost the same so it shouldn't be too revealing plus it would let you confirm that they haven't overspent on magic.

I don't remember there being such a rule in 7th either. It's just the way that some people played and are still playing.

Ya without somebody acting as a TO i think the 2 list route would work. I would just have each player show their list to their opponent at the end of the game.

If you find out that somebody can't play then have them be the TO and check all the lists before the tournament.

I don't think that was ever an official rule (though I could be wrong) I think it's more like a house rule or convention as to whether you reveal your army list to the enemy before the battle or keep it secret.

That's strange, because it seems to be a common thing that many fantasy players are used to. It must have been an explicit rule once, at least.

But are you saying that, RAW you should show your enemy your entire list, including magic items?

It was never an explicit rule. The 'open list' trend was an abberation that leaked over from 40K tournaments, because people couldn't stop using grenades that they hadn't paid for.

There is absolutely nothing, anywhere in the rules of fantasy battle, that says you have to show your opponent your army list.


I have no problem giving a copy of my list to the referee or tournament organizer. They have a legitimate reason to see it.
On principle, I will not let my opponent see my list before a match; neither will I look at his, even if he hands it to me. And after one match, where I showed my opponent my list after the game was over, and he told all his buddies what was in it before the next round, I stopped showing it to people afterwards either. I'll be happy to let you see it after the tournament is over.

I think your idea of putting copies of the lists in an envelope and checking them at the end of the day is the best was to proceed. Assume everyone is going to play honestly, and hope that any discrepencies are accidents and not intentional cheating, and have a good time. Otherwise, someone has to sit out in order to be the list police- if you really think there is a chance of having a lying cheater try to cheat his way to victory.

The thing is, if someone does try to cheat(which I don't think anyone will), we would discover that at the end. And he'd probably be banned from our Warhammer club.

Now, if the rules says nothing about having to show your list, but it says nothing about having to hide your list? This seems like something they ought to have a rule for. I know it's quite easy to make up your own decision on this, it just feels like something GW would try to enforce.

GW's philosophy for the game is no more developed than 'have fun with your buddies.' While that works fine for casual games, for tournaments it is kind of lacking.

+1

GW has a sort of snarky attitude about nit-picking. If they think a rule is obvious from context, they resist stating it explicitly. It is a sort of "I can't believe you are asking such a stupid question" mindset.

From context, the fact that certain magic items force your opponent to reveal things about his units- like whether there is an assassin hidden in it, or one of the magic items a character has- indicates that such things are intended to be kept secret until used.

The rules for WHFB are big and complex and a lot of 'irresistable force meets immovable object' problems can't be forseen when there are 14 different army books out there. As such the rules are terrible for tournament play, and GW really isn't all that interested in making them better suited for tournament play. Which is fine, except that people enjoy the game and keep wanting to have tournaments.

Which puts the onus on the tournament organizers. The best tournaments I have attended had the parameters clearly stated in advance (open lists, or no special characters, or no-holds-barred, etc.), and usually had some of the more common questions answered (when x situation occurs, it will be resolved this way), and all the players had the courtesy to abide by those guidelines without whining. The worst tournaments had the organizers breaking their stated rules (like saying all armies had to be painted to a certain minimum, then letting someone's best friend enter with an unpainted army consisting mostly of proxied units), referees who didn't know the rules, inconsistent rules judgements, and referees who would not deal with blatant cheating.

So good luck and have fun.

Yes, it is just that. I wasn't aware there were items or effects that could reveal what items a character was carrying. Just that in itself sort of indicates that they should be hidden from start.

It also raises the question whether Assassins should be even revealed that they are in the army. I've played many matches when I didn't know, and got a nasty surprise. It's more fun that way, but that's just my own opinion.

Regardless whether this comes down to the players themselves is another question entirely. For a tournament this small however, we've figured that hidden magic items is only a surprise as long as they stay secret. And they won't stay secret for long, as players start talking about the matches and how they went, or spectators going from table to table. Sooner or later someone might find out that his lord has a killer sword.

So keeping it a secret would only serve to benefit the first players.

I sort of like how GW leaves the tournament rules up to the individuals running the tournament, those people just have to foresee the rules requirements for their individual tournament.

I for one would not simply hand my opponent my army list so he could look at it whenever he wants but if he asks me a specific question I will freely answer it.

And also there are no dumb questions only dumb people to ask.

I think abit of WYSIWYG is involved here. As far as i know we dont have to reveal any gear UNLESS there are duplicate unit / characters.
For example if there are 2 warplock engineers and they have different war gears , we should specify which is carrying what .

Other than that the wargear should be allowed to remain a secret , or else items like what Chakax ( i think its Helmet of Prime Guardian ) carry would be redundant.

The FAQ says this:

Q: Do I have to show my opponent my army roster at the start of a
battle, or can I wait until the end of the game, which means I only
need to reveal things like which magic items my characters have
taken when I first use them? (p132)
A: If you think this may be an issue, discuss it with your
opponent before the game starts. Some players prefer full
disclosure at the start of the battle, while others prefer to wait
until the battle has finished before revealing their roster. It is
for you and your opponent to decide which method you prefer
to use.

LunaHound wrote:I think abit of WYSIWYG is involved here. As far as i know we dont have to reveal any gear UNLESS there are duplicate unit / characters.
For example if there are 2 warplock engineers and they have different war gears , we should specify which is carrying what .

Other than that the wargear should be allowed to remain a secret , or else items like what Chakax ( i think its Helmet of Prime Guardian ) carry would be redundant.

I agree with this. If you have duplicate characters or units with magic items they should be clearly identified to your opponent but apart from that it's really up to the two of you to what you do. There is by no means a rule that says you have to reveal what you've got but sometimes you may want to look at each others list before a game.

IIRC, there was a magic ring for Skaven in 6th or 7th that specifically allowed you to keep things hidden, and if you were forced to reveal an item you only ever had to reveal the ring.

I can't remember exactly what it's called though, so it may just be my brain failing at 0700 with no caffeine.