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when i began to play 40k about 3 years ago i started with space marines, as new codexs came out if found thatthese guys sucked more and more. I questioned why, and using space marines as the base line i began to figure out what formula is used to determine a unit's point value. note that i don't know how tanks are done yet and weapons are still a bit difficult

take all stats but wounds and attacks and convert them to a x/6 and ad it all together. ARMOr is the same, and invuls to, attacks ignore the first one each additional is a 6/6. multiply by 3 and simplify. wounds are a MULTIPLIER to the final product.
nades: 1pt value to the end
las rifles are a 0pt value, a bolter is a 1pt value however i haven't figured out improved weapons. also power weapons are 15pt values and power fist 25pts. I know this is a bit weak but it's our baseline.

take a tac squad spacemarine.
b4,m4,s4,t4,w1,a1,i4,L8,a3
4/6+4/6+4/6+4/6+w+a0+4/6+4/6+4/6=28/6x3=84/6=14xw1=14pts. plus weapons (bolther and nades) 2pts=16pts

terminator 40pts
b4,m4,s4,t4,w1,a2,i4,l8,A2 & invul 5
b4/6+m4/6+s4/6+t4/6+wx+a6/6+i4/6+l4/6+A5/6+AI2/6=37/6x3=111/6=18.5pts+bolter and powerfist (2 and 25)=45.5pts. ok here the terminator gets a bit of a discount or it might be that the powerfist is overpriced. (i think it's that)

try this formula out. on any space marine and you will see the pattern. (except hq's they are 25% more expensive, except motf as he is dead on)

Now if you take this formula and use it on other armies you will see that their point values in the book are less. in some condexs (nids and dark eldar are good examples) you will find huge discounts (sometimes 25%). fact is when a SM player says that the codexs are unbalanced, he's not whining, he's stating fact. The game is unbalanced. it's right in your face now. please try and shoot down my empirical evidence.


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what no arguements?

Does this work for any unit? Or have you only done it for those two.

Isn't an unbalanced game fun though? I mean, if I have an army that on paper shouldn't do as well as my opponents, and if I beat him, I'm ecstatic. It means my generalship won. I suppose we could all play the same exact army...and we'd all be bored as hell and switch to a new system

At least you are not biased.

It's annoying that every codex seems to more and more powerful than the last! I can't remember the exact order of release but it was the Guard (which I play so i'm not complaining to much) then hardcore wolves, then tyranids, then the bloody angles, then the hardcore Dark eldar! Having the briefest encounters with these codex armies (other than guard) and having heard many people who play against them complain about the stat lines it may be just hearsay!

However, it may be deliberate in order to encourage fickle hobbyists to part with more cash to have the strongest codex and codex force!

I haven't got the time or inclination to try your formula but well done for giving it a thrash! I would say your probably spot on though!

There certainly seems to be a lack of balance, but I agree with TIMETOWASTE 85, if I can get one over on the latest superdex with my marines or guard then I'll be as happy as a pig in muck. Anybody who knows me will know that this is a rare occurance!

bromah wrote:please try and shoot down my empirical evidence.

Challenge Accepted.

Your analogy first starts with a misunderstanding of armies. An army can be built to be greater than the sum of its parts. It is not always the stat lines of the troopers but how well they interact with each other. This is a HUGE mechanic for dark eldar. Also threat declaration. I feel a TFC is worth more than it's points, true it's frail but if it fires your opponents in for a hurt & if it doesn't your opponent, unless they got lucky or you deployed wrong, threw a bunch of shooting at it that WASN'T aimed at the rest of your troops.

Also DH allies for guard. Inquisitor +2 Mystics allows that squad of russes to fire at any deep striking unit arriving within 4d6? PSB parked next to a culuxes assassin so now he's firing 12 shots?

PBS itself? Whats that, oh they just knock you down to Ld 1 and unless you're fearless the guard guns are going to do 25% casualties & w/ Ld 1 you get to flee off the board.

Also throw out 5+ armor saves, they don't really do much, it's actually a bonus when you DO get them with the abundancy of ap 5 or better weapons.

Your formula completely disregards amazing rules like combat tactics & ATSKNF. I mean come on, I choose to fail this ld test so can fall back & regroup, and either shoot pistols then charge you or rapid fire into your face. The price of failure to escape? A few armor saves ooooohhhhh, scary for space marine. Also I auto-regroup as long as I can, and that being below 50% casualties, screw it.

Let's not forget combat tactics - Playing kill points? Ok 3 squads of 10. Now there's a lot of objectives this game? Woo-hoo 6 squads of 5, now I can play offense AND deffense.

Creed & outflanking a squad Leman Russes. - SCARY. Creed outflanking something that isn't heavily armed or armoured because you brought footslogging list - not scary.

Orks Mob Rule.

DE Power From Pain

GK The shrouding

Tyranids Synapse

Necrons WBB

Wound allocation shenanigans are also not involved in your "formula" Have fun working out nob bikers.

Vehicles

How the threat of units change as more of them are brought to the table.
--I.E. soul grinders, If my opponent brings one, big deal all my AT shoots at it. If he brings 3 & puts them in the same wave, now they become A LOT more scary.

None of these are addressed in your formula and these are VERY big bonuses to armies.

Marine players have no right to whine. Their codex is easily one of the most competitive, right there with guard & wolves. (Not enough evidence on DE yet) The game has changed a lot, vehicles are now competitive & MSU is one of the best playstyles there is if done right.

Your formula utterly fails to account for the following:
Special rules
How the unit interacts with the rest of the army.
The current Metagame - I.E. plasma used to be better than melta because vehicles sucked. Now meltas are better because of the abundance of armor.

Until it does your "empirical evidence" has just been shot down, good day sir.


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geordie09 wrote:hardcore Dark eldar!

Who says they're "hardcore" I've yet to see any tournaments where they have won & until this evidence is presented they can't be classified. Also they could get boned by their FAQ just as the Tyranids did.

ok so it doesn't account for special rules but every group has them (a special rule, nids synapse covers nearly a whole board and gives them fearless). and the armor saves.. oh well it's accounted for in the points. and armor saves are not uniform. you are saying it's just space marines but it's all about escalation. dark eldar, nids, those groups are Empirically OP. Tactics asside, out of the box they are hyped up. The formula is a point formula not a tactics one shas soo your thoughts are mildly slowed bud

bromah wrote:ok so it doesn't account for special rules but every group has them (a special rule, nids synapse covers nearly a whole board and gives them fearless). and the armor saves.. oh well it's accounted for in the points. and armor saves are not uniform. you are saying it's just space marines but it's all about escalation. dark eldar, nids, those groups are Empirically OP.

That right there, gives me pause. I'm not one of a thousand screeching 13 year-olds, whining that Tyranids aren't competitive. They are. But they certainly aren't over-powered.

bromah wrote:Tactics asside, out of the box they are hyped up. The formula is a point formula not a tactics one shas soo your thoughts are mildly slowed bud

I had a fairly extensive examination of your arguments prepared... though, I can't be bothered any longer. Anyone who suggests that someone else's thoughts are 'mildly slowed' has no place in an intellectual debate.

If his thoughts are mildly slowed, I would suggest that may make your thoughts to be dim-witted, ill-thought-out and ludicrous on a truly epic scale. Bud.

Sure, come up with a system, present it for criticism, admit there are flaws and try to correct them... but why try and use words like "empircal" when you don't even know what it means well enough to not capitalise it?

As for every group having special rules - that is kind of the point, isn't it? Every group has different special rules, and each of these different special rules has different points costs due to their different effectiveness.

Your idea is not without merit, but GW, past and present, have stated that choosing points costs is an art, not a science, and that any attempts to use formulas for things like this have let them own, and they've had to just use their own judgement. Your suggestion that there is an overall codex creep is certainly plausible, even probable, but your overbearing manner, ill-conceived pride in your incomplete ideas and rudeness towards other posters leave you looking like something of a troll.

proof on nids
Gene stealer: 14pts
ws:6/6+bs0/6+s4/6+t4/6+i6/6+a6/6+ld5/6+sv2/6
total=33/6x3=99/6=16.6pts (x1wound) mild bonus

tyranid warrior brood 30pts base
ws:5/6 bs3/6 s4/6 t4/6 w3 i4/6 A12/6 ld 5/6 sv3/6
total=40/6 x3=120/6=20pts x3wounds=60pts.
i could be fudging on the attacks point values but i honeslty don't think so. escpecially with the fact it has devourers and rending scythes .... the thing is at less that 1/2 point value.


I noticed that the pt value of Imperial conscripsts is about 4pts too low also.
this leads me to believe that they do this do to the fact that you need to buy soo many of them that it makes their company money and that's why they are ubbered.

Oh, and I am willing to bet I can come up with a different formula that gives you correct points costs for the Dark Eldar stat line and underpowers marines. I'd start by deliberately overcosting strength and toughness so that marines seem cheap compared to what they "should cost", and factor in armour saves as a major factor.

dude it's a uniform formula. you can apply it to almost everyone and get the same pt values. some times it jives with the book and other times it's way wway more. in the way way more cases it's always with units that are agreeably over powered.

And I still I could come up with a uniform formula that gives me results to refute your case, for example by uniformly applaying squares or square-roots to things. When you already know the answer you want from something, you will always get the answer you want. And you STILL need to account for special rules. After all, Eldar Guardians have none, so should they get a discount? Are you seriously trying to suggest that Eldar Guardians should cost 11 points?

Also, you have assumed that power-fists should be counted at 25 points for terminators, which is not the case. For an HQ unit, or even a Sarge, they add a new ability the model/unit does not have. For terminator squads, you are are just multiplying an existing ability. Not the same deal at all.

Even your maths in your marine examples looks a bit suspect to me. I'm going to go check it properly.

There is also the fact that the 3-4 borderline is something of a sweet-spot in W40K. Changes in stats well below or well above that line as not as valuable as changes that take you over/under that line.

soooooooo, most point costs arent the obvious value.

duh!


your point is that GW makes models to ABOUT the right point cost? wtf?

you found a formula that makes about the point cost. that's because GW makes model points based on other models.
since a tac marine was probably the first designed, it is the basis. So, every model has to be comparable pointwise to a tacmarine. If your formula was spot on for every model, yea. Right now, not a chance. Sorry. intersting theory.

Oh, can I please have my Eldar Rangers for 12 points? That is what their statline says they should be. I'll even add two points for their sniper rifles.

it's actually pretty spot on most of the time. example the gene stealers, and several other units in other armies, do i need to do an analysis for you for every unit?

GW warps point costs and OP's army's, the tac marine is the base i used to discover the formula. but also SM's are made to suck. If you want even more proof, look at the point disparity between standard SM's and the Space Wolves. Just for terminator armored figures (not counting their captain).

The game is factually imbalanced.

lol

@bromah
sorry your theory is being kinda killed, but you did call a member who did exactly what you asked him to (challenged the theory) mildly slowed.


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on top of that, it doesnt even make sense.

whatever

come up with a better formula and then critic mine

bromah wrote: please try and shoot down my empirical evidence.


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what no arguements?

.......

Me, MinMax, Shas'o Dorian, and Fifty shot it down. with arguments.
please, please, please do not yell at us for critiquing.

bromah wrote:
whatever

come up with a better formula and then critic mine

Bad grammer. Bad spelling. don't you get the text-box that pops up when you make a post with no caps? Or is that to much of a Tl;dr for you?
Also, perhaps it would be easier if you posted your entire formula, in variable form, so that we may copy it and work out if it, I don't know, actually works.

I think we should end this discussion. It works pretty well for a tactical marine. ALL units have to be somewhat comparable tp all others even though some suck and some are amazing. So, of course a formula working for the game's most basic unit (arguably) will be near most units.

I applaud bromah for his hard work, but wish he wouldnt call sound thoughts mildly slowed when his formula is not the answer to the universe.

As far as I am concerned, End Of Discussion.

Cheers, SD

unless I did the math wrong, guardsmen should cost 14 points apiece...

In any case, this is all absurd. Things cost what they do relative to their utility in the rest of the codex, and on what they want the army to be able to do. I mean, why on earth does it cost the same for a guardsman to have a power weapon as it does a space marine captain when clearly they have different capabilities? Why does a rhino only cost 5 pts. less when the guard chimera is so clearly superior? Why don't Tau even have access to close combat weapons?

I think that, generally speaking, GW does a good job of pricing the units, at least compared to the rest of the units in the codex. This is done intuitively, though, not by some strict formula.

It's like I said at the start...
You can't just use this equation for Space Marines alone, otherwise it's not true...

stompydakka wrote:It works pretty well for a tactical marine.

Except it leaves out combat tactics, combat squading & ATSKNF, the three things that make them really good but yea whatever. . .


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Really bromah? Midly slowed? You have to take into account special rules. I'm sorry but Combat Tactics is MUCH better than fearless. So is ATSKNF. Your formula doesn't work.

Also how are DE over powered? Please inform me as I have yet to see them win a grand tournament & I have thrashed them (Yes current ed) up and down the board 7 different times. If you are going off hype & speculation I suggest you find some "empirical" evidence to back up your claim or else it shall be regarded as pure speculation & if you know anything of math & science, you know formulas speculate nothing, they state facts.

Anyway enough of this, I'm considering how the source said "Sms are made to suck" an utterly false statement, look at how they do in the GTs & god forbid look at some of steleks work. SMs are the poster child, they do not now suck, and they haven't sucked for awhile, you just suck at using them. Now please begone from the forum if you cannot present your thoughts in a well thought out, mostly gramatically correct manner & take your fail with you, I am probably not the only one who feels this way, so I shall leave you with a challenge.

Email your entire idea to Stelek@yesthetruthhurts.com I know many people dislike his personality but I don't think anyone can argue he has a good grasp on the game (much better than mine). Or just send him an email on why SMs suck, I'll have a good laugh at how he tears you to shreds.

As an alternative, PM me why SM suck as well as your finest army list for them. I shall make a thread of it , so people can inform you on how you are using them wrong. I'm not even a MeQ player & I know the power in that book.
Good Day Sir

i've posted the examples several times.
also sm vanilla's showing up 4th from bottom on GT's isn't that significant of an achievement

Really eh? Because I've yet to see a good reason why they suck. Humor me, please.

4th from bottom how so? Because you know, GW itself and FACTS seem to disagree :http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=5200003&pIndex=2&aId=14700053&multiPageMode=true&start=3
I mean they only came in 1st 3 times, 2nd 8 times and 3rd 4 times, that MUST mean they suck. (My numbers may be off by 1 or 2, but still impressive)
Now present your evidence in one clear argument & I shall tear to to shreds. I don't care if it was scattered around I want it point by point so I can prove you wrong point by point. I am bored & I challenge you do an intellectual duel!


Also where are the OP dark eldar on this list? You fail to counter the point that they have yet to be PROVEN over powered.

From the link above

1st places - 10 Imperial Guard, 5 Marine, 5 Chaos Space Marine, 4 Orks, 3 Eldar, 2 Tyranids

2nd places - 12 Space Marines, 5 Eldar, 4 Imperial Guard, 3 Chaos Space Marines, 2 Orks, 1 Dark Eldar

3rd places - 10 Space Marines, 4 Imperial Guard, 4 Tyranids, 1 Orks, 1 Eldar, 2 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Black Templars, 1 Daemonhunters, 1 Tau

Massive lack of marines placing there. Not.

Your point. Wrong.

Your post. Epic Fail.

Fifty wrote:From the link above

1st places - 10 Imperial Guard, 5 Marine, 5 Chaos Space Marine, 4 Orks, 3 Eldar, 2 Tyranids

2nd places - 12 Space Marines, 5 Eldar, 4 Imperial Guard, 3 Chaos Space Marines, 2 Orks, 1 Dark Eldar

3rd places - 10 Space Marines, 4 Imperial Guard, 4 Tyranids, 1 Orks, 1 Eldar, 2 Chaos Space Marines, 1 Black Templars, 1 Daemonhunters, 1 Tau

Massive lack of marines placing there. Not.

Your point. Wrong.

Your post. Epic Fail.

Just thought I'd make it easier for our poor friend here. THat adds up to 27 space marine armies. Dark Eldar appear there ONCE.

Actually Space Marines appear to place more than any other race.