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In fluff terms, who do you think is better/cooler/more powerful? They both work in the same 'field' of work (If it can be called that) and are both reasonably similar in game rules and so on.
I'd go for Fabius, but what does everyone else think?

Wasn't Fabuis the apprentice of Urien?

I'd say Urien = pro, Fabuis = semi-pro.

1hadhq wrote:Wasn't Fabuis the apprentice of Urien?

I'd say Urien = pro, Fabuis = semi-pro.

Where does it say Fabius was Uriens apprentice?

It does say in codex DE he was tutored by Haemonculi.

Who is Urien Rakarth?

Urien is the master of the Haemonculi.

Did Fab.B learn from the 'master' or one of the lesser Haemonculi?
I'd guess a 'mon'keigh' wouldn't have a lecture from Urien usually but Fab.B. may have offered enough?

TRISKELION7 wrote:Who is Urien Rakarth?

pretty much the number 1 Haemonculous(sp?) the Dark Eldar have, he pretty much wrote the book on torture.

Put it this way.

Fabulous Bill went to see Urien Rakarth to learn how to be as creative in his experimentation.

Not the other way around.

You don't learn from someone who knows LESS than you (unless it's 'what NOT to do').

The codex only says that Fabius Bile was tutored in the Tower of Flesh, one of the strongholds of the Haemonculi Coven of the Thirteen Scars, not by anyone specific.

Gavin Thorne wrote:The codex only says that Fabius Bile was tutored in the Tower of Flesh, one of the strongholds of the Haemonculi Coven of the Thirteen Scars, not by anyone specific.

Means he was taught. By a Haemo. Urine Rakharth is the master of the Haemo.

Thought it just said he was taught there... not tortured?

In a fluff battle I think Bile would crush Urien wrinkled old hide in physical combat, but when it comes to torture/science/creepybackfromdeathish Urien is god.

I believe there is a bit a of fluff out there that specifically sates that Bile went and tutored under Rakarth, but it's defiantly fact that Bile did go to learn at the Tower of Flesh in the Commoragh, But I think that fluff wise, even though Bile is a SM, Rakarth would be what I believe to be the equivalent of silent and swift death...with extreme pain that lasted for a long time...

Rakarth>Fabius.

I was gonna say fabius, but given that piece of fluff i was unaware of.. I have changed my vote! go rakarth!

Klawz wrote:

Gavin Thorne wrote:The codex only says that Fabius Bile was tutored in the Tower of Flesh, one of the strongholds of the Haemonculi Coven of the Thirteen Scars, not by anyone specific.

Means he was taught. By a Haemo. Urine Rakharth is the master of the Haemo.

And again, nothing indicates that he was tutored by Rakharth in the DE Codex. If there's a fluff source that indicates otherwise, I'd love to read it. However, just because I go to Cambridge doesn't mean I'll be learning under Stephen Hawking. Given Dark (and Craftworld - to be fair) Eldar's propensity for haughtiness, derision, and prejudice, Bile would likely be treated like a gaijin asking to be taught Kenjutsu in Edo period Japan. Well, maybe not quite that bad, but pretty close to it.

I'm also quite sure that Rakarth's coven is the "Prophets of Flesh" not the "13 Scars"

Maybe look at the results of their work, I mean for a race semi obsessed with asthetics, the things they pop out arent exactly easy on the eye.

Bile creates super human physcologically deranged genius murderers that manage to hide in the imperiums general population, also been documented to clone armies in a few days that number thousands.

just my 50 cents.

Gavin Thorne wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Gavin Thorne wrote:The codex only says that Fabius Bile was tutored in the Tower of Flesh, one of the strongholds of the Haemonculi Coven of the Thirteen Scars, not by anyone specific.

Means he was taught. By a Haemo. Urine Rakharth is the master of the Haemo.

And again, nothing indicates that he was tutored by Rakharth in the DE Codex. If there's a fluff source that indicates otherwise, I'd love to read it. However, just because I go to Cambridge doesn't mean I'll be learning under Stephen Hawking. Given Dark (and Craftworld - to be fair) Eldar's propensity for haughtiness, derision, and prejudice, Bile would likely be treated like a gaijin asking to be taught Kenjutsu in Edo period Japan. Well, maybe not quite that bad, but pretty close to it.

Well, a Haemo taught him, right? Urien Rakarth is the master of the Haemos. Ergo, if Bile learned his craft from some < Rakarth, that means Bile < Rakarth.

if the only yardstick you're using is 'who is a better torturer', then of course the answer is going to be rakarth.

but since torture is only a part of bile's repertoire, and he has numerous other talents like gene manipulation, chemical treatments, and organic augmentation wrapped in a crunchy chaos shell, i have to give the points to Bile.

They are really the same person. HAVE YOU SEEN THE MODELS! But Fabius is more pimpin, so it goes to him.

hemingway wrote:if the only yardstick you're using is 'who is a better torturer', then of course the answer is going to be rakarth.

but since torture is only a part of bile's repertoire, and he has numerous other talents like gene manipulation, chemical treatments, and organic augmentation wrapped in a crunchy chaos shell, i have to give the points to Bile.

Bile does regeneration, mutation, clon...er...ation!

hemingway wrote:if the only yardstick you're using is 'who is a better torturer', then of course the answer is going to be rakarth.

but since torture is only a part of bile's repertoire, and he has numerous other talents like gene manipulation, chemical treatments, and organic augmentation wrapped in a crunchy chaos shell, i have to give the points to Bile.

Have you read the fluff for what it takes to become a Scourge, Wrack, or Grotesque?

RAKARTH he is way better than any marine wana be. Rakarth makes taloses. Can bile say that he makes giant flesh scorpions. Also Rakarth has ben around much longer then Bile there for is smarter also he is an eldar which means he has unused/represed phycer abilitys. all and all Rakarth can do what ever bile does but 3 times better.

Rakarth is supposedly one of the oldest Eldar alive, meaning that he has thousands of years on Fabius. The Haemonculi are able to come back to life from just a hand, as is explicitly stated in the codex. This kind of technology goes far beyond Bile's cloning and mutations. Fabius is devoted to perfection and creating the greatest warrior (a trait leftover from his membership in the Emperor's Children). Rakarth and the Haemonculi torture and experiment to create pain and suffering which feeds them. Their motivations are very different in that aspect.

Based on in-game stats alone, I think Fabius has to watch out for Rakarth's Flesh Gauntlet and regeneration.

Eldrad wrote:RAKARTH he is way better than any marine wana be. Rakarth makes taloses. Can bile say that he makes giant flesh scorpions. Also Rakarth has ben around much longer then Bile there for is smarter also he is an eldar which means he has unused/represed phycer abilitys. all and all Rakarth can do what ever bile does but 3 times better.

Yes intellectually and science nerd wise Rakarth takes the cake, but in a stand up slug fest on the battlefield Bile would crush his bird boned body and watch the dust spill out. Also Bile has access to chaos manipulation so in a way can bend the relities of science and genetics, deffinately think there are things that bile can do the Rakarth cant but that goes both ways.

Kathartes wrote:Rakarth is supposedly one of the oldest Eldar alive, meaning that he has thousands of years on Fabius. The Haemonculi are able to come back to life from just a hand, as is explicitly stated in the codex. This kind of technology goes far beyond Bile's cloning and mutations. Fabius is devoted to perfection and creating the greatest warrior (a trait leftover from his membership in the Emperor's Children). Rakarth and the Haemonculi torture and experiment to create pain and suffering which feeds them. Their motivations are very different in that aspect.

Based on in-game stats alone, I think Fabius has to watch out for Rakarth's Flesh Gauntlet and regeneration.

I think on the table all fabius needs to do is tap Rakarth with his lil insta kill wand (getting through that 6+ 4+ save wont be hard) and he dies regen or not...

I just wanted to point out that Fabius was around before the Horus Heresy and is therefore over 10,000 years old. But, Eldrad Ulthran (Farseer of the Ulthwe craftworld) was also over 10,000 years old (but naturally, not because of residing in the time altering/void that is the Eye of Terror. Since Ultran is now dead (999.M41) it is hard say how this applies to Urien. Was he older than that? Very likely not as Farseers are long lived even amongst their already long lived brethren. I would say, naturally, that Urien is somewhere between 3,000 and 10,000 years old). His fluff says that he is "several thousand years old."
Even if he entirely resided in the material realm, Fabius could potentially live a few thousand years, and his on going genetic alterations could effect that negatively or positively.
What also makes it interesting is that it is stated that Urien has died and "risen back to life time and time again." He can be completely regenerated from his "remains."
Over TIME (of which Fabius and Urien have loads) I believe that Urien would ultimately win. I'm just not sure how good Fabius is at returning from the dead, but he does have lots of knowledge in the field of cloning. But is it as efficient as Urien's? Would a self clone of Fabius be a blank slate, or would he hold all of his knowledge from the get go?

drewsus wrote:I just wanted to point out that Fabius was around before the Horus Heresy and is therefore over 10,000 years old. But, Eldrad Ulthran (Farseer of the Ulthwe craftworld) was also over 10,000 years old (but naturally, not because of residing in the time altering/void that is the Eye of Terror. Since Ultran is now dead (999.M41) it is hard say how this applies to Urien. Was he older than that? Very likely not as Farseers are long lived even amongst their already long lived brethren. I would say, naturally, that Urien is somewhere between 3,000 and 10,000 years old). His fluff says that he is "several thousand years old."
Even if he entirely resided in the material realm, Fabius could potentially live a few thousand years, and his on going genetic alterations could effect that negatively or positively.
What also makes it interesting is that it is stated that Urien has died and "risen back to life time and time again." He can be completely regenerated from his "remains."
Over TIME (of which Fabius and Urien have loads) I believe that Urien would ultimately win. I'm just not sure how good Fabius is at returning from the dead, but he does have lots of knowledge in the field of cloning. But is it as efficient as Urien's? Would a self clone of Fabius be a blank slate, or would he hold all of his knowledge from the get go?

the dark eldar fluff states that high ranking DE are immortal. They torture people to make themselves younger, having found a fountain of youth. They simply use other to do the aging and dying for them. All the high ranking DE were old even at the very onset of the fall. No SM were alive before the fall, they were created shortly after the fall during the great crusade.

I think Urien's immortality is different than other high ranking Dark Eldar. Those others would die if their head was cut off, but not from old age. Urien would just regenerate, in time, if blown up, as far as I can gather.