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Greetings. I've been working on these guys for a few days, and i've had experience with custom stuff (i've done a whole IW Fandex before) previously, so i've tried to use that.

These troops are by no means complete, a lot of points costs (if not most) have yet to be decided, and all wargear and special rules are experimental. Please point out any errors i've made, anything I could/should change and please don't hesitate to suggest points costs (currently most, if not all Armoury, Treasury and Reliquary entries are devoid of points costs).

Some ideas have been revived from the old 3rd Edition Codex, whilst some have been stolen from the current codex. I also need to alter some of the SC profiles, notably Typhus' (he needs T5(6) at least).

Currently there is just one thing that will not be implemented, and that is Terminator Armour. There are currently no plans to add Terminator armour as upgrades for these units, instead, the existing Terminators will recieve limited bonuses when marked appropriately, but that idea is still in the thinking stage.

You will need a PDF reader in order to access the attached rules.

I had a quick look at your rules. I have to admit, your ruleset is massively broken or would cost a considerable amount of points on a per marine/upgrade basis. To cite just one quick example, zerkers getting a potential str 6, I6 on the charge is pretty crazy (that’s essentially chaos lord/kharn the beterayer esque stats for the entire unit!)

I would recommend re-crafting all the veteran cult units to operate more like a wolfguard/SM veteran/honour guard type unit. Under this model, the only stat different between a veteran cult trooper and an ordinary cult trooper should be +1A (except Thousand Sons who should have +1BS). Unlike their ordinary counterparts, all members should be able to purchase special CC weapons at the player’s whim. Ranged weapon upgrades should be limited to a 1 per 4 model system. Lastly, tac on a specialist cult banner of some sorts as an optional wargear item (with a 1 per army rule) and your good to go.

I’d also recommend you add an FOC restriction to the veteran cult units (for both fluff and balance reasons). Something like, army must contain at least 1 squad of normal cult troopers and a HQ with the appropriate mark for veteran cult troopers to be accessible.

The points-per-model haven't been decided, but they are going to be high.

The Berzerker strength 5 was an attempt to make it worthwhile taking them over regular berzerkers, and could probably be lowered back to 4, but I think the initative should stay, otherwise they have a worse statline than berzerkers bar 1 extra attack, and slightly worse than a skull champion.

The FoC restriction was going to be 1 unit of any Veteran (not 1 unit of every Veteran) per every 750-1000pts but I forgot to add it. (1 every 500pts seems a little overpowered).

The main reason I went away from Wolfguard esque (which was my original idea) was because it was only 1 attack, there would be no difference from a skull champion or plague champion.

Why have a unit of 10 berzerker veterans for 300pts when you can have a unit of regular berzerkers for 210, missing only 10 attacks (3 and 1/3 berzerkers less, 4 extra berzerkers means you have not only more attacks than the veterans, but you're still cheaper).

I respect your work.... but these rules seems overtly complicated to me and ... massively broken....

punkow wrote:I respect your work.... but these rules seems overtly complicated to me and ... massively broken....

Then could you please suggest changes instead of just criticism? I'm sorry if I come across as harsh but telling someone something is bad does not help them improve unless you suggest ways to make it better. As a writer, I abhore recieving plain criticism, it's just lazy on the part of the critic.

Avatar 720 wrote:Why have a unit of 10 berzerker veterans for 300pts when you can have a unit of regular berzerkers for 210, missing only 10 attacks (3 and 1/3 berzerkers less, 4 extra berzerkers means you have not only more attacks than the veterans, but you're still cheaper).

Elite units aren't supposed to be point cost efficient; they’re supposed to be elite. Elite units such as vanguard, veterans, wolf guard, honour guard and command squads all have inflated point costs and are designed to operate solely as a hammer unit. The inflated point cost is justified solely because a)no one is usually going to no more than 1-2 per army and b) if they didn’t have an inflated point cost than people would generally try to max out these units in their army, thus crippling diversity.

The original Str5, I6 statline, would easily be priced at 30-40 points and that is without power weapons and thus not a well designed unit. People will generally go for cheaper units over the veteran cult marines because marines, despite how powerful, are quite easy to kill without inv saves and lack punch without power weapons. People will generally go for counts as loyalist TH/SS terminators or a chaos lightning claw squads with a IoK as they are more of an efficient buy for a player’s point costs. Elite units with this stateline generally pay more points for their wargear as well over cheaper units such as tac marines as well.

You have to understand that a cult trooper is already more elite than a normal tac marine or chaos space marine and this is represented via the mark of chaos in their profile (the chaos gods don’t give a mark of chaos to just any rank and file trooper). The hundreds to thousands of years of excess training a veteran marine has over a normal marine is only ever yields +1A or +1 to a stat (as already established in previous codices).

You’ll generally find cheaper, more flexible soldiers with +1A (or +1BS in the case of thousand sons) will have a greater user response and incentive to use. A unit like this is a cheap, flexible unit that can be made as elite as a player wants via the addition of a wargear. I reckon something along the lines of for an elite zerker unit.

25 points per model (zerker statline with +1A)
Squad Size: 5-10 models

Every model may purchase one of the following:
• Power weapon 10 points
• Power fist 20 points
• Lightning claw 15 points
• Plasma pistol 15 points
• Pair of lightning claws 20 points

1 may purchase a Banner of Khorne (1 per army) for 40 points

Banner of Khorne: The entire unit gains a 4+ cover save against enemy shooting and and D3 attacks for charging in CC instead of 1.

Now this is a fairly point cost efficient and powerful unit that I would gladly pay points for.

Anyway I hope this criticism helps and I look forward to an updated document!

I'm with Punkow on that, that's basically what the entire thing was.

Complicated and broken.

grayspark wrote:I'm with Punkow on that, that's basically what the entire thing was.

Complicated and broken.

Me; read the damn thread. wrote:Then could you please suggest changes instead of just criticism? I'm sorry if I come across as harsh but telling someone something is bad does not help them improve unless you suggest ways to make it better. As a writer, I abhore recieving plain criticism, it's just lazy on the part of the critic.

Candy.man is the only one giving helpful advice thus far; I highly suggest that you follow suit.

personally i like these cult troops, bring back the feeling of an ACTUAL chaos codex and not the crap that is 4th ed

LIKES:

- An option to give a themed army a hammer unit of hard core troops.
- Most of the themed items add a lot of character, artifact's are what makes chaos.
-I disagree with the point of str 6 I6 being that amazing, okay they strike faster than normal marines etc, but all they are Grey Knights without the shrouding, stormbolters etc. With designated combat units like this most of the time, the opponent will not get in combat unless they can help it, a unit like this will butcher most tactical squads and will overcome most assault units on the assault and will be pressed when assaulted, without furious charge they are not too scary. Although I would consider lowering initiative to 4, so that they only strike before most marines on the assault making the player have to be much more careful about placement etc.
- I like that the thousand sons allow a player to actually field a squad of psykers and them be actually quite good (not to knock the incredible Psyker Battle Squads, but I find myself really liking the take 5 psykers in the renegade book with their own powers and dispair that they are rubbish and do nothing.

DISLIKES:

-Lack of point cost, make judgement difficult,
-Bulwark hive, instead of in close combat giving an invulnarable save, I would suggest reducing attackers to hit's by 1, so need 5's instead of 4's as that is what traditionally that kind of effect does and it works quite well. Also more characterful than just another invulnerable save.
-Part of me is asking why Nurgles plague sword is not poisoned... 2+ or something. I'd consider dropping the instant death and replacing with a high poison power weapon. Different to other poisoned weapons in squad, it being a power weapon. This continues your mace/festering theme and giving the sarge a power weapon elegantly continues this.
-It's not so much a dislike but more a suggestion, I don't know very much chaos fluff but are word bearers beyond loosing focus and possession, the renegade psykers if were periled of the warp were replaced by a posessed form, you could try a similar transformation for this lot, who being space marines would become quite good... (I AM LOOKING AT YOU T3 Possessed Rogue Psyker..)

I digress, overall I think that you are trying to regularize things, am spotting similiarities between the three such as your selection of weapons etc, all have access to a special flamer etc. This is not a bad thing.

When making points, I would be careful to make them playable even if they choose not to use that special character as some players just don't like them and it would be a shame to throw your units into the catagory of yet another special character mod.

Finally, when modelling points, I would look at the BA Death Company for inspiration as they are effectively the all elite, super customizable units where any man can take a powerfist etc.

Hope my rhetoric is understandable and helpful,
Cute-Hydra

Okay, I had a big day today, so i'm going to reply to a few quick things, nothing huge till tomorrow.

Lack of point cost, make judgement difficult

The points is where I tend to fall down; I don't like pricing things (see the two psost of unconstructive criticism for the major reason why) and prefer people to suggest prices based on the effects, otherwise I just become inundated with unhelpful posts about how things are badly costed.

Bulwark hive, instead of in close combat giving an invulnarable save, I would suggest reducing attackers to hit's by 1, so need 5's instead of 4's as that is what traditionally that kind of effect does and it works quite well. Also more characterful than just another invulnerable save.

I could probably do that, but i'd need to change the Epidemic Ensign; a possible -2 to hit would mean most dedicated CC troops would be hitting in the region of 5s and 6s, and I want the Plagues to be beatable in combat. If I left them as-is, most MEQs would be hitting on 5s and 6s and wounding on 5s, requiring power weapons or high strength attacks to make a dent. A possible alternate would be to reduce WS instead of adding 'to hit' modifiers, as it takes a few levels of WS to alter to roll to hit.

Part of me is asking why Nurgles plague sword is not poisoned

The Plague Sword is taken directly from the 3rd Edition codex. it would make sense for it to be poisoned, but keeping it as a power weapon to would mean your killing a lot of troops on 2s without regard for toughness, the instant death at least requires a successful wound with all saves failed, which against a high toughness, multi-wound model is hard to come by. If you're swinging a power weapon around that wounds everything on 2s, the job suddenly becomes a lot easier. The poisoned power weapon works if the poisoned roll is reasonable (like the Nurgle Daemon Weapon or the Claws of Slaanesh, both of which are Poisoned (4+). 3+ Poison might be suitable, but it may be pushing it a little, and 4+ poison seems too light for a two-handed weapon that only 1 person can use.

That's all i've got time for at the moment, i'll check back tomorrow after work.