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I haven't been able to find something in the BRB about this.
The question is, if Dwellers from Bellow, or some other similar type spell that affects all models in a unit is cast on a monster who has handlers, does the crew have to take strength tests as well?
If not, does that mean that if the monster fails the strength test, then the monster is only removed from the game on a role of 1-4 and one of the handlers is removed on 5-6?

(I ask because I'm desperately trying to find a way to take on a WoC Hellcannon with my WE army)

This is an interesting one for sure. Some thoughts:

The Monster and Handlers section on pg. 73 makes no mention of the handlers not being separate models. It does say that we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit though.

Furthermore, only if the monster suffers an unsaved wound are we told to roll the die and determine if its the Monster or the Handler who suffers the wound.

Dwellers makes no mention of wounds. It says "Every model in the target unit must pass a Strength test or be slain, with no saves of any kind allowed."

I *think* that this means if you hit the HC with Dwellers, then the cannon would test on its own S value. If it failed that test, it would indeed die, as you are not told to randomize this between the HC and the Dwarves.

I would like to hear others thoughts on the rules though as I am not sold on this as the official ruling.

I think you have it correct, Lensherr. Dwellers never puts a wound on the target, it just removes it.

The crew and the cannon aren't treated as separate units so the cannon itself would take a test on it's own strength, and the crew would take a test on theirs. If the cannon dies from the spell, all the crew are removed with it but should the cannon live, it's just a matter of passing at least 1 crew test to keep it on the table.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

One test for the whole model, using the highest value.

Killjoy00 wrote:One test for the whole model, using the highest value.

I'm sorry but thats for ridden monster where everything is one model.
However there was a thread a while back where we discussed and proved the handlers are immune to such spells.

Scarecrow456 wrote:The crew and the cannon aren't treated as separate units so the cannon itself would take a test on it's own strength, and the crew would take a test on theirs. If the cannon dies from the spell, all the crew are removed with it but should the cannon live, it's just a matter of passing at least 1 crew test to keep it on the table.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

This is the hellcannon, not an empire cannon. The WoC Hellcannon is treated as a monster with handlers that happens to be able to shoot, not a war machine like you are thinking. If the hellcannon's crew die (either by enemy action or by being eaten by the beast itself) other things happen.

As to the topic, I kind of think each model would have to test for Dwellers, monster and handlers included. I can see both sides though. I it is just my feel for it that the handlers are ignored for the movement related game purposes, and we use them as is for the rest such as combat, shooting and spells. I really don't have any particular back up for that, except that the handlers are able to attack and be attacked in melee, and the rule for them hiding behind the monster causing hits to be randomized is specially called out in the monster section, as are the special rules about movement (pretend they are not there). I might well be very wrong there, though, but I am just assuming that unless they tell me differently, I only ignore them for purposes of what they tell me to.

A good question though...

The handlers can't be attacked in melee.

Are you certain about that? I thought handlers fought in melee... or am I now getting the warmachines and monsters mixed up?

Damn, should have brought my rule book to my folk's house

They can attack but can't be attacked back.

Yep, you can only ever hit the monster - essentially makng everyones monster and handlers like Hydras.